EV Digest 6582
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Weatherization and Cooling of Motors
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Old NEDRA Videos Wanted
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: new DC series motor run-in?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: wall to road efficiency
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: charging while driving question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: NiMH Battery Packs in Parallel
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: NiMH Battery Packs in Parallel
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: charging while driving question
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: new DC series motor run-in?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: charging while driving question
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Better Data Logging Options?
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: wall to road efficiency
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
by "bortel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: City El
by "bortel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: new DC series motor run-in?
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: charging while driving question
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: charging while driving question
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) EVLN(Saturn Aura hybrid, relevant car tour)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) EVLN(Electric shuttles on Columbia, MD pathways & roads)-long
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Bob Rice wrote:
Oh I'll sort 'em later for the foto albums and NEVER do.
This is the gist of the whole issue.
Sure, people will go out there and spend untold hours and effort filming
stuff or shooting stills, but they rarely, if, ever, actually do anything
with it except put it in a box and forget about it.
Nowadaze, digital photograpy and storage is basically free. This makes the
problem worse. It didn't cost you anything so it isn't worth anything. Just
bury it in a hard drive somewhere and forget it. I always see lotsa folks
supposedly recording these EVents, but they must all just look at them once
and that is about it.
So... not next week, next month, or next year, but now, on NEDRA's 10th
Anniversary, maybe some folks will actually open up the vault and kick down
the footage for ALL to see.
Yeah, I know, a bunch of wishful thinking, but I can still hope :^D
Yes Bob! Put the good stuff on DVD or email it or whatever and let's get it
out there! The older the better. Would really like to see stuff from '97 and
earlier.
Would like to see it THIS year.
Thanks
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA Northwest Regional Director
www.nedra.com
_________________________________________________________________
Live Search Maps find all the local information you need, right when you
need it. http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag2&FORM=MGAC01
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Hey Frank, Roland, all.
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I use a Warp 9 motor as a temporary replacement, I
> can see that the brushes
> were not fully seated or completely full contact
> curve. Also the face of
> the commentator down to the main motor shaft was not
> insulated, which is
> best to do to keep brush dust from tracking from the
> commentator to the
> motor shaft which is chassis ground.
As I've previously written I really believe your Warp9
and it's chattering brushes was more a fluk than a
norm. Probably built on a Friday and EVeryone wanted
to get going on their weekend 8^P Being I wasn't
there I can only speculate, but this is something that
I doubt happens often.
> My resistance values when the motor when new, was
> over 20 megohms to ground
> and after 10 years it decrease to 50 kohms, which
> was cause by brush dust
> tracking to from the commentator to motor frame.
This is the bain of DC motors 8^(
> About every 10 years, I
> normally break down the motor, clean, tested, and
> had it re-enmal by a motor
> shop, install a new set of brushes, did a low
> voltage running test using a
> commentator stone that you can get from a motor
> shop.
Playing devils advacate here I saw John B.'s 11 year
old ADC9 in his Carmengia and the brushes were factory
fresh! It showed me that a proper sized motor has
EVerything to do with brush wear! The comm was
perfect and the motor got an A1 from me, having
inspected it last year.
> This time, I had the whole inside of the surface of
> the motor case painted
Whoa now, hopefully "not" the whole inside! It is
best and most important that the pole shoe to housing
interface remain steel to steel. Please don't squirm
on this one! 8^P
> with white high gloss epoxy paint and had the motor
> shop enamel the front of
> the commentator down to the motor shaft and up to
> the motor bearing
> surfaces.
While I agree that one can't have to much insulation I
feel that this also might have some other reason.
Simply said, the comm face is made from insulating
material. You are correct that it can happen and
does, but I'd say it's just as easy to carbon coat a
glyptal, or dip face as it is the OEM comm face. I'd
care to guess that a sticky residue was left on that
comm face allowing the brush material to attach itself
to, resulting in a ground (or short to frame).
Otherwise a simple blowout would have removed it and
the ground would have been removed.
I see new parts with a manf. proccess oily coating on
them which I believe is the demon your looking for. I
just got some ADC holders that were absulutly slimmy.
On a lift motor I won't worry as much but for high
voltage EV stuff I'd want to clean them.
> Visual check the brushes and commentator while the
> motor is running. If
> there is slight arcing, this may be normal until the
> brushes have formed a
> complete shape to the commentator.
I think a lot of you guys would be surprised how
chattery motors are when you first juice them up. A
little brush seating and they tame right down 8^)
> If you hear a clicking sound, this may be one of the
> commentator segments
> being a little higher or the brushes are position in
> the wrong direction for
> the rotation. My brushes in my GE-11 are angle at 15
> degrees so the sharp
> edge of the brushes are moving away from from the
> surface of the
> commentator.
>
> If you motor and brushes are set for a CW rotation,
> you should never rotate
> the motor in CCW rotation or you may chip the edges
> of these brushes.
This has been discussed before, angled or not both
types are made to run both ways. If you get chipping
IMO there is something not right in Denmark. I've
fired up lots of motors unseated against the grain (so
to speak) and have never seen brushes chip. Again, I
can only view things from what "I've" seen.
> If you do have some clicking noise, than use a
> commentator stone on the
> commentator while the motor is rotating. A motor
> shop can supply you with
> the right type of grit stone for this commentator.
>
> Stone the commentator for about 5 minutes with a
> light touch moving back and
> forth on the commentator. Continue to run the motor
> on 12 volts.
It's important to stress use just 12 volts to bench
test a motor as Roland states.
In as much as I'm all for doing a test before
installing a new motor to make sure it is in working
order. To also check all electric and mechanical
fasteners to make sure they are tight (just found a
new ADC9 with loose lead screws)(two full turns loose)
I'd not recommend disassembling the motor or anything
else which might void a new motors warranty. It is
standard practice that a warranty is voided if
tampered with so to speak.
Well that's all I have time for.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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On the other hand, there are lots of new batteries that are supposed to last
200k, 300k miles or more (Ovonic NiMH or AltairNano Li-Ion in
PhoenixMotorCars)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:12 AM
Subject: RE: wall to road efficiency
Actually, Lead-Acid batteries rarely last 20,000 miles, many (most?) don't
even last 10,000.
But you are absolutely correct, EVs are not typically low maintenance.
Many folks on this list like to compare the costs of having a professional
maintain a ICE vs the costs of doing home maintainance on an EV.
Think about how expensive an EV would be if you had to pay to have a
professional check and water the batteries every month.
I would have thought EV's have significant maintenance. It seems like
batteries are changed between 20,000 to 50,000 miles and that is not
cheap or easy, a lot more work than changing oil, and radiator fluid.
Then if you have the common wet batteries you need to check the water
levels every month or so from what I read.
So while the controller and motor may be maintenance free I think most
EV have a way to go to be less hassle than a typical ICE engine.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Farver
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:19 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: wall to road efficiency
Electro Automotive wrote:
Having spent a lot of years in a gas car repair shop, I have a pretty
good idea what annual maintenance costs are (or were ten years ago
when we quit) for a typical gas car. A 6,000 mile major service and
tune USED to be $150.
The maintenance advantages are becoming less and less. Most people able
to afford an EV conversion are buying fairly new cars that are covered
by warranties. A lot of cars today can go 100,000 miles with nothing
but oil and air filters. Manufacturers recommend oil changes at 7500
mile intervals, and most other maintenance at 30k to 50k mile intervals.
OTOH, if you are someone who tends to own cars past their warranty the
difference can be significant on non-routine care. 10 year old cars
don't generally need $160 tune ups, but even minor engine issue requires
extensive troubleshooting by a mechanic skilled on computerized
diagnostics. (At average costs of $75/hr, minimum)
The Dodge dealership recommended junking my 1997 Neon because the ECU
fuse would blow whenever the engine got hot. They diagnosed the problem
as a short in the engine harness. A replacement harness was $1000, and
they wouldn't waste technician hours diagnosing and repairing the
harness. (I eventually tracked the problem to a bad heater element in
a $30 oxygen sensor)
I've heard GM uses a standard fuel sender part on many vehicles now, but
the sender must have vehicle specific firmware written to it to
calibrate it to the tank size. The sender costs about $17 to the
dealer, who then charges $200 to download the firmware to it. Senders
wear out, a lot.
How many people here have had a technician "solve" a Check Engine light
problem by replacing a $400 computer?
Most of the people I talk to do not worry about the cost of auto
maintenance, they just hate the hassle. The EV, I tell them, requires
almost no routine maintenance, and almost all of it can be done in a few
minutes by the owner in their own garage, and without getting their
hands dirty.
Mark
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How will the Chevy Volt work?
David Roden wrote:
Every time someone posts this question, Roland answers this way.
I think the way he states it confuses people.
I think Mick Abrahams' analogy was a good one. Think of the battery like
a bathtub. You can be filling it and emptying it at the same time, even
at different rates; it doesn't matter. If you fill it faster than it is
being drained, it slowly fills up. If you are draining it faster than
you are filling it, it slowly runs out. The time just depends on the
relative rates of filling and draining.
The only modification is that the battery has only one "pipe" that is
used for both filling and draining (its positive terminal). So, the flow
(current) in that pipe (wire) has to be in or out -- water can't go both
ways in a pipe at once. But it certainly can change from moment to moment.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Would it work to put the charger on a timer and set the voltage to only
90% of full?
Sort of... you can't use voltage to determine where "90% full" is, but
you can use an amphour counter to do it. Or, you can set your timer so
you "know" when it needs to shut off to be 90% full, based on some other
outside measurement.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce wrote:
I was just curious. Does there exist a sensor that you can put into a
flooded cell that continuously measures the specific gravity of the
electrolyte? This could be handy for monitoring the state of charge of the
batteries while driving since you couldn't use the hydrometer then.
Yes, there are. Most of them measure the refractive index (how much it
bends a beam of light). Others use a float with a magnet or optical sensor.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter, Brian, Rob&Amy
Peter your objections to gensets are factual as far as they go, but don't cover all the possibilities, and so aren't
definitive. As I said elsewhere, we won't do it, even in phase I, unless its substantially greener than my V6 Dodge.
Of course the global view of efficiency looks bad when considering hybrids, so many energy transitions and all, but
thats just because hybrids are an interim solution until fuel cells and hydrogen, or decent batteries are available.
Hauling 1200 lbs of lead is not efficient either, its just a workable solution today.
yes motorcycle engines are on the table for me, because they are the most
advanced and easily available small engines.
Do you folks want to have a genset discussion here? I'd love too but I got the impression it was OT. Otherwise I can
fire up a forum on my site where we could discuss it, or just use email.
thanks for the comments...
JF
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
from Mick Abraham mentioning David Roden's comments:
...
Now consider an on-board engine generator/charger system (ignoring for the
moment David Roden's worthwhile remarks about pollution issues). ...
(Side note: the above scenario would start with chemical energy (in the
fuel) converted to me.... etc etc
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks I missed that one.
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
You could always take a look at the EVBMS group on Yahoo.
--
John G. Lussmyer
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jim,
On the Warp 9 motor I received, the brush edges were chip on some of the
brushes. I found one commentator bar high, where the sound was coming from.
Also the brushes in this motor seem to fit a lot looser in the brush holder
than the ones in my GE.
The commentator segment edges were sharp, you could run your fingers across
them and cut your self. There was deep raised lathe grooves and the
commentator bars edges were not V-groove like my GE is.
In two years of running this motor, the brushes worn down about 1/4 of the
length compare to 5 years on my GE.
There is a lot of brush dust that blows out of the grill brush covers which
covers everything in the EV motor bay. The brushes seems to be a lot softer
than my GE brushes are. I sure be glad to get my GE-11 back from the GE Shop
who originally mod these motor way back in 1975.
This motor is a truly traction motor, replaces a engine location with no
extra modifications. It has built in GM 350 cu.in. motor mounts that fit
the same location as the engine does, and the rear bell and flange coupler
bolts right up to any GM transmission.
Back in 1985, I re-enamel the field coils in place and then mask off the
field coils and spray paint the inside of the motor frame at that time.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: new DC series motor run-in?
> Hey Frank, Roland, all.
>
> --- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I use a Warp 9 motor as a temporary replacement, I
> > can see that the brushes
> > were not fully seated or completely full contact
> > curve. Also the face of
> > the commentator down to the main motor shaft was not
> > insulated, which is
> > best to do to keep brush dust from tracking from the
> > commentator to the
> > motor shaft which is chassis ground.
>
> As I've previously written I really believe your Warp9
> and it's chattering brushes was more a fluk than a
> norm. Probably built on a Friday and EVeryone wanted
> to get going on their weekend 8^P Being I wasn't
> there I can only speculate, but this is something that
> I doubt happens often.
>
> > My resistance values when the motor when new, was
> > over 20 megohms to ground
> > and after 10 years it decrease to 50 kohms, which
> > was cause by brush dust
> > tracking to from the commentator to motor frame.
>
> This is the bain of DC motors 8^(
>
> > About every 10 years, I
> > normally break down the motor, clean, tested, and
> > had it re-enmal by a motor
> > shop, install a new set of brushes, did a low
> > voltage running test using a
> > commentator stone that you can get from a motor
> > shop.
>
> Playing devils advacate here I saw John B.'s 11 year
> old ADC9 in his Carmengia and the brushes were factory
> fresh! It showed me that a proper sized motor has
> EVerything to do with brush wear! The comm was
> perfect and the motor got an A1 from me, having
> inspected it last year.
>
> > This time, I had the whole inside of the surface of
> > the motor case painted
>
> Whoa now, hopefully "not" the whole inside! It is
> best and most important that the pole shoe to housing
> interface remain steel to steel. Please don't squirm
> on this one! 8^P
>
> > with white high gloss epoxy paint and had the motor
> > shop enamel the front of
> > the commentator down to the motor shaft and up to
> > the motor bearing
> > surfaces.
>
> While I agree that one can't have to much insulation I
> feel that this also might have some other reason.
> Simply said, the comm face is made from insulating
> material. You are correct that it can happen and
> does, but I'd say it's just as easy to carbon coat a
> glyptal, or dip face as it is the OEM comm face. I'd
> care to guess that a sticky residue was left on that
> comm face allowing the brush material to attach itself
> to, resulting in a ground (or short to frame).
> Otherwise a simple blowout would have removed it and
> the ground would have been removed.
>
> I see new parts with a manf. proccess oily coating on
> them which I believe is the demon your looking for. I
> just got some ADC holders that were absulutly slimmy.
> On a lift motor I won't worry as much but for high
> voltage EV stuff I'd want to clean them.
>
> > Visual check the brushes and commentator while the
> > motor is running. If
> > there is slight arcing, this may be normal until the
> > brushes have formed a
> > complete shape to the commentator.
>
> I think a lot of you guys would be surprised how
> chattery motors are when you first juice them up. A
> little brush seating and they tame right down 8^)
>
> > If you hear a clicking sound, this may be one of the
> > commentator segments
> > being a little higher or the brushes are position in
> > the wrong direction for
> > the rotation. My brushes in my GE-11 are angle at 15
> > degrees so the sharp
> > edge of the brushes are moving away from from the
> > surface of the
> > commentator.
> >
> > If you motor and brushes are set for a CW rotation,
> > you should never rotate
> > the motor in CCW rotation or you may chip the edges
> > of these brushes.
>
> This has been discussed before, angled or not both
> types are made to run both ways. If you get chipping
> IMO there is something not right in Denmark. I've
> fired up lots of motors unseated against the grain (so
> to speak) and have never seen brushes chip. Again, I
> can only view things from what "I've" seen.
>
> > If you do have some clicking noise, than use a
> > commentator stone on the
> > commentator while the motor is rotating. A motor
> > shop can supply you with
> > the right type of grit stone for this commentator.
> >
> > Stone the commentator for about 5 minutes with a
> > light touch moving back and
> > forth on the commentator. Continue to run the motor
> > on 12 volts.
>
> It's important to stress use just 12 volts to bench
> test a motor as Roland states.
>
> In as much as I'm all for doing a test before
> installing a new motor to make sure it is in working
> order. To also check all electric and mechanical
> fasteners to make sure they are tight (just found a
> new ADC9 with loose lead screws)(two full turns loose)
> I'd not recommend disassembling the motor or anything
> else which might void a new motors warranty. It is
> standard practice that a warranty is voided if
> tampered with so to speak.
>
> Well that's all I have time for.
>
> Hope this helps
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
> Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
> http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> yes motorcycle engines are on the table for me, because
> they are the most advanced and easily available small engines.
Emissions aspects aside, you need to consider the load rating
these small engines are built for. You will get an entirely
different lifespan of an engine run at full throttle and
full load than one that only had to provide that output for
short durations, then lighter loads the rest of the time.
In genset service, especially for the load of an EV, it's
safe to assume you'll be at or near 100% of capacity. Factor
in that you can expect to replace the engine more frequently
than one more conservatively rated, so think about using a
somewhat universal coupling and mounting system, so you're not
tied to any single form factor.
> Do you folks want to have a genset discussion here?
The idea of having a genset as an EV range extender is alluring
at first, but is fraught with issues that make it very impractical.
It's expensive, inefficient, complex to implent well, and pollutes
more than a regular ICE vehicle. Think about going down the freeway
or through city traffic with a genset trailer in tow blaring away at
full throttle. Any genset small enough to be convenient won't
be big enough to do any good, and a genset big enough will be
too expensive and heavy to be worth the trouble.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Rodney A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you were to try to use labview as a custom
> instrumentation panel, what else do you need?
PC, DAQ hardware for what signals you're interesting
in monitoring. Could be as simple as a serial connection
to an E-meter. That's it.
> What kind of things can you do with it?
Display the raw data on the screen, write it to disk, or both.
Additionally, you can process the data (say, average it) and
display it not only as numbers, but on a graph over time, or
on a meter or bar type of display. The data is just a variable,
so you can process it against other constants or variables,
and display that to the screen or write to disk. The data
can trigger events, say if you wanted a warning if your battery
voltage is getting below a threshold you set. The event could
blink an indicator red and play a WAV file through the speaker
if you wanted.
> So if you get an LCD panel for it, what else do you
> need?
It's part of the "PC". You can use whatever display you want.
In my case I'm looking at industrial spec'd touch screens,
so I can put controls on the screen and manipulate the program
without having to use a pointing device in the vehicle.
> Whats OSX?
Apple operating system (corollary to Windoze).
> presume you need some kind of memory for the LCD panel
> to run it?
You only need the resources of the PC (Mac, Doze, 'nix).
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Actually, Lead-Acid batteries rarely last 20,000 miles, many (most?)
don't even last 10,000.
That's probably true. Most people (at least new EV owners) seem to abuse
them into an early grave. I'd say 20,000 miles is a good number for
flooded lead-acid golf cart batteries if you take reasonable care of them.
But you are absolutely correct, EVs are not typically low maintenance.
"Typical" EVs on this list are either built by very small inexperienced
companies, or one-off home-made conversions. They aren't generally built
to the same standards as new commercially produced automobiles. They
often start out with a used car that already has lots of miles. The
builder is often less than skilled in all the fields needed.
But EVs certainly *can* be lower maintenance. Even with flooded
batteries, you don't normally need to add water more than every few
months. And there is no maintenance at all for the motor or controller.
You can see this quite clearly in commericial EVs; the electrics are far
more reliable and lower maintenance than equivalent ICE versions.
Think about how expensive an EV would be if you had to pay to have
a professional check and water the batteries every month.
Fork lifts and golf cart users have to pay their maintenance people to
do this. They still find the EVs cheaper than ICEs.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hump,
The Washington legislature had the same question, so as a result this
initiative creates a new Washington State class of 'medium speed vehicle'
with all the same requirements of the federal 'low speed vehicle', except
with a 35mph speed limit. So in Washington you will register your NEV/LSV as
a MSV.
Dan
--------------------------------------
Pete almost hit on what first struck me when I read about this......
This is a Washington state initiative. If it passes, how do they get around
the Federal definition of NEV?
Still it doesn't matter to me..... I live on a 55 mph street. No NEV will
ever work for me.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kenneth,
There are a few City El's in the U.S. and, I believe, in the EV album.
There is a 'small' problem with using them in the U.S. in that they are VERY
low to the ground. In Europe, where all the cars are smaller, they are
marginal, but in the U.S., they are so low that most of the other cars can't
see them. Even with the trusty bicycle flag they are just about invisible to
many drivers. Just look at motorcycle/car accidents, motorcycles stand much
taller than a City El, but get hit regularly because folks just don't see
them.
Dan
------------------
It seems to me that the City El would be the perfect vehicle for me to
complete my many errands around town. They seem to be priced fairly and
there are always several for sale on eBay Europe.
My question is, "Has anyone registered one of these in the US"? It seems to
me that it would not be difficult to register as a motorcycle.
Finally, how difficult would it be to import one into the States?
Thanks in advance for your answers.
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--- Begin Message ---
thanks Jim - great to hear a pro's comments!
----- Original Message ----
From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:10:13 PM
Subject: Re: new DC series motor run-in?
Hey Frank, Roland, all.
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I use a Warp 9 motor as a temporary replacement, I
> can see that the brushes
> were not fully seated or completely full contact
> curve. Also the face of
> the commentator down to the main motor shaft was not
> insulated, which is
> best to do to keep brush dust from tracking from the
> commentator to the
> motor shaft which is chassis ground.
As I've previously written I really believe your Warp9
and it's chattering brushes was more a fluk than a
norm. Probably built on a Friday and EVeryone wanted
to get going on their weekend 8^P Being I wasn't
there I can only speculate, but this is something that
I doubt happens often.
> My resistance values when the motor when new, was
> over 20 megohms to ground
> and after 10 years it decrease to 50 kohms, which
> was cause by brush dust
> tracking to from the commentator to motor frame.
This is the bain of DC motors 8^(
> About every 10 years, I
> normally break down the motor, clean, tested, and
> had it re-enmal by a motor
> shop, install a new set of brushes, did a low
> voltage running test using a
> commentator stone that you can get from a motor
> shop.
Playing devils advacate here I saw John B.'s 11 year
old ADC9 in his Carmengia and the brushes were factory
fresh! It showed me that a proper sized motor has
EVerything to do with brush wear! The comm was
perfect and the motor got an A1 from me, having
inspected it last year.
> This time, I had the whole inside of the surface of
> the motor case painted
Whoa now, hopefully "not" the whole inside! It is
best and most important that the pole shoe to housing
interface remain steel to steel. Please don't squirm
on this one! 8^P
> with white high gloss epoxy paint and had the motor
> shop enamel the front of
> the commentator down to the motor shaft and up to
> the motor bearing
> surfaces.
While I agree that one can't have to much insulation I
feel that this also might have some other reason.
Simply said, the comm face is made from insulating
material. You are correct that it can happen and
does, but I'd say it's just as easy to carbon coat a
glyptal, or dip face as it is the OEM comm face. I'd
care to guess that a sticky residue was left on that
comm face allowing the brush material to attach itself
to, resulting in a ground (or short to frame).
Otherwise a simple blowout would have removed it and
the ground would have been removed.
I see new parts with a manf. proccess oily coating on
them which I believe is the demon your looking for. I
just got some ADC holders that were absulutly slimmy.
On a lift motor I won't worry as much but for high
voltage EV stuff I'd want to clean them.
> Visual check the brushes and commentator while the
> motor is running. If
> there is slight arcing, this may be normal until the
> brushes have formed a
> complete shape to the commentator.
I think a lot of you guys would be surprised how
chattery motors are when you first juice them up. A
little brush seating and they tame right down 8^)
> If you hear a clicking sound, this may be one of the
> commentator segments
> being a little higher or the brushes are position in
> the wrong direction for
> the rotation. My brushes in my GE-11 are angle at 15
> degrees so the sharp
> edge of the brushes are moving away from from the
> surface of the
> commentator.
>
> If you motor and brushes are set for a CW rotation,
> you should never rotate
> the motor in CCW rotation or you may chip the edges
> of these brushes.
This has been discussed before, angled or not both
types are made to run both ways. If you get chipping
IMO there is something not right in Denmark. I've
fired up lots of motors unseated against the grain (so
to speak) and have never seen brushes chip. Again, I
can only view things from what "I've" seen.
> If you do have some clicking noise, than use a
> commentator stone on the
> commentator while the motor is rotating. A motor
> shop can supply you with
> the right type of grit stone for this commentator.
>
> Stone the commentator for about 5 minutes with a
> light touch moving back and
> forth on the commentator. Continue to run the motor
> on 12 volts.
It's important to stress use just 12 volts to bench
test a motor as Roland states.
In as much as I'm all for doing a test before
installing a new motor to make sure it is in working
order. To also check all electric and mechanical
fasteners to make sure they are tight (just found a
new ADC9 with loose lead screws)(two full turns loose)
I'd not recommend disassembling the motor or anything
else which might void a new motors warranty. It is
standard practice that a warranty is voided if
tampered with so to speak.
Well that's all I have time for.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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--- Begin Message ---
On 22 Mar 2007 at 11:30, Lee Hart wrote:
> The only modification is that the battery has only one "pipe" that is
> used for both filling and draining (its positive terminal). So, the flow
> (current) in that pipe (wire) has to be in or out -- water can't go both ways
> in a pipe at once.
We could alter the analogy a bit, though it may not work too well for
someone who's always been a city dweller. ;-)
Think of a water system using a well pump and tank. Just like the battery
in your EV, the tank usually has only one pipe through which water enters or
exits.
You open the tap and the water exits the tank; the level begins to drop.
The pump turns on and begins refilling the tank - pushing the water into the
tank. If you're just using a little water - washing your hands, say - the
tap is open only a bit, so the pump is moving much more water than you're
using. The tank soon fills up, and the pump goes off. If you keep using
this small amount of water, the above process repeats until you shut the
tap.
If you open a huge faucet, the tank will drain down until the pump starts,
just as above. Say you're using more water than the pump will deliver. In
this case, the net flow will be out of the tank, and the level will continue
to fall. When the tank is empty, the volume of water you're getting will
fall to whatever the pump can supply.
This is an almost exact parallel to the situation you're asking about.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 22 Mar 2007 at 11:03, john fisher wrote:
> hybrids are an interim
> solution until fuel cells and hydrogen, or decent batteries are available.
I don't agree. First, fuel cells and hydrogen are a dead end, as has been
repeatedly argued on the EVDL. They are markedly less efficient than
batteries. The main issue is that hydrogen is not a fuel.
Second, true hybrids (now called PHEVs) are likely to be with us for a long
time, at least until we can find a fast charging station on every other
corner. I'm not so sure I'd call them an interim solution.
> Do you folks want to have a genset discussion here? I'd love too
> but I got the impression it was OT.
We discourage discussion of the factory "hybrids," which use only gasoline
for their energy and thus aren't really EVs. (IMO they shouldn't be called
hybrids, but what's done is done.)
However, note this quotation from the EVDL charter :
"An electric vehicle is any vehicle which uses an electric motor as the
primary or sole motive force. The energy storage device used to drive said
motor can use any technology including, but not limited to, solar electric,
electric battery, fuel cell, internal combustion engine coupled with an
electric generator (hybrids), or any combination of these."
The list voted several years ago to minimize discussion of fuel cells, but I
don't recall any such limitation on discussing "internal combustion engine
coupled with an electric generator." I'm willing to listen to those who
might wish to have such a limit, and if necessary we could conduct a poll.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Saturn Aura hybrid, relevant car tour)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070316/AUTO01/703160428/1148
Bush to visit GM, Ford hybrid-car plants, tout energy
initiatives David Shepardson / Detroit News Wash. Bureau
WASHINGTON -- The man who told Detroit automakers to build
"relevant" cars is going to see them made firsthand at two
American plants that are building hybrids.
President Bush will visit Tuesday a General Motors Corp. assembly
plant and a Ford Motor Co. assembly plant. The White House said
late Thursday he would fly to Fairfax, Kan., to the GM plant,
where workers assemble the Chevrolet Malibu and Malibu Maxx.
Workers are building the Saturn Aura hybrid this year. Then he
will fly to Claycomo, Mo., to tour Ford's Kansas City assembly
plant and make a speech on energy initiatives. The Ford Escape
Hybrid, the traditional Ford Escape and the F-150 are built
there. Last year, GM announced it was investing $208 million at
the Fairfax plant.
Bush and Detroit automakers have had testy relations since a
White House meeting set for last spring was delayed until
November, which followed a Wall Street Journal interview in which
he told automakers to build "a product that's relevant."
© Copyright 2007 The Detroit News. All rights reserved.
===
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Aura
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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. EV List Editor & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Electric shuttles on Columbia, MD pathways & roads)-long
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://news.mywebpal.com/news_tool_v2.cfm?pnpID=658&NewsID=790419&CategoryID=1825&show=localnews&om=1
Inroads for electric vehicles? By Andrei Blakely 03/15/07
Officials look at shuttles for Columbia's byways
During a tour for Wilde Lake officials, Columbia resident Joel
Broida describes how these electric shuttles could be used along
the community's pathways and roads. Joel Broida envisions a day
when small battery-powered vehicles will ply Columbia's extensive
pathway system and its public roads.
The Town Center resident said he hopes to convince officials of
Howard County or the Columbia Association -- or both --Êto back a
program in which energy- efficient vehicles similar to golf carts
would transport residents from their homes to Columbia's village
centers.
The program would make it easier for elderly residents who don't
own cars to get to stores and other facilities, Broida said.
First, however, CA officials would have to agree to lift the
association's rules restricting the use of motorized vehicles on
its pathways -- an idea at least two members of CA's 10-member
board of directors have greeted with some skepticism.
Motorized vehicles have been banned from Columbia's pathways
since the planned community opened in 1967, said Karen Hawkins, a
CA spokeswoman.
In January, Broida presented a plan to CA's board that envisions
residents paying to ride six-passenger "e6" electric vehicles
along the pathways. The $15,000 shuttles are built by General
Electric Motorcars and use rechargeable batteries.
The county could potentially buy and maintain the vehicles,
Broida said, adding that he estimates that the project could get
off the ground with $90,000 for a driver, vehicles, insurance and
other costs.
"I really would like to see people be able to traverse the
pathways whether with a three-wheeled vehicle, wheelchair or
other form of transportation," said Broida, whose wife, Gail, is
the Town Center representative on CA's board. "I think people are
afraid of the pathways."
Off the beaten path
This week, Broida demonstrated his idea as he ferried several
Wilde Lake officials, including CA board member Philip Kirsch,
between the village centers of Wilde Lake and Harper's Choice in
an e6 licensed for road use.
Broida [...] escorted a second group over the footbridge that
crosses Route 29 between Town Center and Oakland Mills.
The shuttle was driven by Dan MacDonald, the vice president of
the Baltimore- based Clean Cities.com, which sells the vehicles,
and provided Broida one for the day to showcase it, MacDonald
said.
Kirsch said he found positives and negatives with the shuttle
proposal.
"It's obviously (energy efficient) technology," he said, adding
that Columbia's pathways are too narrow to accept the vehicles.
After the demonstration, Broida said he understood that the
pathways would need to be improved to accept the vehicles.
"I've faced reality," he said, adding that he believed the
shuttle program also could work using county roads.
Issues still to be resolved
County and CA officials said they are willing to study Broida's
proposal, though they have questions about how it would work.
The CA board's Planning and Strategy Committee, on which Gail
Broida sits, discussed Joel Broida's plan at its March 8 meeting.
The committee, which is chaired by Philip Marcus, of Kings
Contrivance, decided to study shuttle programs in similar
communities across the country before considering lifting CA's
ban on motorized vehicles.
Gail Broida said she would recuse herself from any vote on the
matter, if necessary.
"There are many issues that need to be resolved," Marcus said. "I
remain skeptical, but open-minded."
Other vehicles might work
Joel Broida's plan is not the first time that he and his wife
have advocated the use of small motorized vehicles to get around
Columbia.
Last year, when Gail Broida was running for the Town Center seat
on the CA board, she tooled around for a day on a two-wheeled
Segway to campaign for improved crosswalks downtown. Richard
Segar, the owner of the Segway of Annapolis dealership, donated
the vehicle for Broida to use during her campaign as a way to
drum up publicity for the machine, Segar said.
The Broidas later bought two Segways from the Annapolis
dealership, Joel Broida said, adding that he and his wife have no
deal with the dealership to endorse the machines.
He said that he believed that other small motorized vehicles,
such as Segways, golf carts, wheelchairs, might also be used in
the program he is proposing, but that he is currently focusing
only on the e6 shuttles.
Broida also has met with county officials to discuss the
program.
"Of course there are cost and liability issues that need to be
addressed," said Kevin Enright, a county spokesman, in an e-mail
response asking for comment. "But first we'd like to know just
how interested others are in this project."
Broida said he also has asked Columbia village officials to poll
residents to ascertain whether if they would use such a shuttle,
adding that several have agreed to conduct the poll.
E-mail Andrei Blakely at Andrei [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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