Because, Marion, the fool cell gives the least pollution at the vehicle. (And the manufacturers want the carbon credits, and Is, I have been told, the refining or conversion, of methane to hydrogen, is done in an unregulated location, not in the motor vehicle.) Even with the losses in fuel conversion, an EV with a fool cell, charging the small battery pack (The system used in all fool cell vehicles) is still more efficient, than an ICE running on methane, and the ICE spews CO2 and Nitric oxides, from the exhaust, just not quite so many as a common gasoline car. An aside , most of the vehicles at Disney World in Orlando. Florida including their gas turbine electric generating plant are running on natural gas and have been for the past 44 years... They claim a 50% reduction in exhaust emissions...(Compared to gasoline in 1970 ! )
Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com <evprofes...@evprofessor.com>)* * Founder: **EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss <http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> * On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 1:52 AM, Marion Hakanson via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > I have a cousin who lives in Italy. They own a small Fiat van which runs > on both methane (compressed) and regular gasoline; Apparently it costs the > equivalent of $20 to fill the methane tank, and about $100 to fill the gas > tank (which they'll do if they're in the hinterlands and can't find a > methane station). > > If most H2 comes from methane (natural gas), why not just burn the methane > directly, instead of converting it multiple times (and losing something at > every step), so you can feed it to a fuel cell? > > Regards, > > Marion > > > On 07/28/14 10:30 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV wrote: > >> https://greet.es.anl.gov/ >> >> I have looked at it in the past. One thing to look at when someone >> reports results of the model: >> >> Everything is configurable in the model. Make sure the assumptions about >> generation and usage are well understood (either left to defaults or well >> documented). It is very easy to sway the outcome with changes in >> assumptions. >> >> In many cases, the changes can be realistic, but they need to be vetted. >> For example, running the model for Idaho, the electrical grid is more than >> 50% renewable and less than 30% coal. Those assumptions for New York would >> be very wrong. I believe the defaults are national averages. >> >> Mike >> >> >> On July 28, 2014 7:33:57 PM MDT, Cor van de Water via EV < >> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: >> >>> All data I have seen till now shows that emissions go up with the >>> indroduction of H2, due to the low efficiency well-to-wheels of >>> creating >>> H2. >>> So, it is considered not just a very difficult energy carrier, but also >>> inefficient, besides being very costly in roll out. >>> If you have data to the contrary, I am interested in vetting it (since >>> it is easy to mislead with cherry-picked info). My mind is open, I tend >>> to decide >>> based on data. Fan-boy? Not so much. >>> Got a link for that GREET model? >>> >>> Cor van de Water >>> Chief Scientist >>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com >>> Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info >>> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com] >>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 6:27 PM >>> To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List >>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla might Supercharge EVs to regain 400mi in >>> 15min >>> for7 credits >>> >>> You are horribly mistaken if you believe that FCEVs increase current >>> emissions of either criteria or GHGs. Again, check the results from the >>> GREET model. >>> >>> Every responsible agency that I work with locally believe that you >>> CANNOT meet public health standards or GHG goals without both BEVs and >>> FCEVs. >>> >>> We need a 60%+ decrease in NOx emissions to meet current standards, >>> which data indicates are inadequate, and we expect will be tightened >>> further. >>> >>> In a short time, most purchased autos will need to be ZEVs. That means >>> that people like Peri, who has identified range issues as necessitating >>> his own ICE in addition to a BEV, will need to forget the ICE. For >>> some, >>> that will mean BEVs, for some FCEVs, for some hybrids, and (IMO), >>> combinations of those as technology progresses. >>> >>> We need ZEVs of all flavors. >>> >>> Sorry for your pain, but it's all self-induced as well as hindering >>> efforts of those that know what they're doing. The fanboy stuff isn't >>> productive for those of us doing real work. >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Cor van de Water via EV >>>> >>> <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Mark, >>>> If I am mistaken and you do have an interest in the environment, >>>> then your words and your actions are in conflict. >>>> The fact that you are not just promoting Hydrogen but even lobby to >>>> get legislation that makes it a requirement and the environment be >>>> damned by the associated increase in CO2 output, makes this all the >>>> more painful. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Cor van de Water >>>> Chief Scientist >>>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com >>>> Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info >>>> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 8:23 AM >>>> To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List >>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla might Supercharge EVs to regain 400mi in >>>> >>> 15min >>> >>>> for7 credits >>>> >>>> Thank you for falsely stating stating my interest and what I care >>>> >>> about. >>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 12:05 AM, Cor van de Water via EV >>>>>> >>>>> <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Bill, >>>>> >>>>> Mark has no interest whether it is simpler to use Hydrogen or not. >>>>> He even does not care that the use of Hydrogen will increase the >>>>> >>>> amount >>>> >>>>> of CO2 being burned (so, it is a disaster for the environment). >>>>> He is promoting Hydrogen - that is all. Look up his profile and you >>>>> >>>> will >>>> >>>>> understand. >>>>> >>>>> I urge all members of this forum to once again adhere to the earlier >>>>> decision to avoid Hydrogen as a topic, because it is.... explosive. >>>>> >>>>> Cor van de Water >>>>> Chief Scientist >>>>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com >>>>> Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info >>>>> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill >>>>> >>>> Woodcock >>> >>>> via EV >>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2014 10:58 AM >>>>> To: Mark Abramowitz >>>>> Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List >>>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla might Supercharge EVs to regain 400mi in >>>>> >>>> 15min >>>> >>>>> for7 credits >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 27, 2014, at 10:39 AM, Mark Abramowitz >>>>> >>>> <ma...@enviropolicy.com> >>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I've seen an animation of such a device for natural gas dispensing, >>>>>> >>>>> and am told it could just as easily be done for hydrogen. >>>>> >>>>> How does that address what I said? I've seen animations of the >>>>> Incredible Hulk, that doesn't support the proposition that it could >>>>> "just as easily be done for X." >>>>> >>>>> But we know that whatever is being talked about... trip to the >>>>>> >>>>> moon, >>> >>>> world peace, cold fusion... you will be certain that it is "simpler, >>>>> cheaper, and easier than hydrogen." >>>>> >>>>> So, prove me wrong. What is it about hydrogen that you think is >>>>> >>>> easier >>>> >>>>> to move than electrons? >>>>> >>>>> -Bill >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >>>>> Name: signature.asc >>>>> Type: application/pgp-signature >>>>> Size: 841 bytes >>>>> Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail >>>>> URL: >>>>> >>>> >>>> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/ >>> attachments/20140727/a966 >>> >>>> 07fb/attachment.pgp> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>>>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >>>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>>>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >>>>> >>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >>>> >>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ >> group/NEDRA) >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ > group/NEDRA) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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