Mark, The Camry was a **test** vehicle with three carbon wound hydrogen storage tanks. The article used Bar instead of PSI. Engineers and Scientists may know that one Bar is 14.7 pounds per square inch at sea level but the general public understands PSI a whole lot better. 700 bar works out to be 5 tons per square inch. The Plastic Kinetics YouTube video highlights a very interesting development and I hope it works out for them.
The 2,000 hours came from Bill Moore, Editor of EV World. He attended a hydrogen fuel cell conference back in the early 2000. The estimates he reported on had a wide span of durability but he came away with the impression that "2,000 hours" encapsulated a number of ranges. Most of that had to do with natural contaminants. Air is cleaner in some parts of the country than others. I see where Toyota is touting the Mirai has a 150,000 to 200,000 range before the fuel stack needs to be replaced. Musk is saying the Tesla packs are lasting 300K to 500K miles. I understand your love for HFCEVs but from some of the responses here, a lot more development has to take place and then an infrastructure build out. I understand large corporations wanting to push hydrogen. It makes sense - to them. Right now, a HFCEV has too many limitations for my transportation needs. Meanwhile, Exxon has a graph showing the peaking of world oil supply around 2040. May we live in interesting times. On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:20 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > Gee, a lot of incorrect stuff to reply to. > > Not incorrect, but you think that PSI is less confusing to use than bar? > Then it’s 10,000 PSI. As far as your description of what it is - frankly, I > hadn’t a clue what you were talking about. Your numbers seem to be > confusing a point. > > Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I’m not sure what you are talking about. > No Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply that they > are dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get managed > better than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does any other > energy storage mechanism. > > Fuel cell lifetime of 2,000 hours? Care to provide a source? It’s just not > true. > > Electrolysis not very efficient? What do *you* consider “not very > efficient”? What do you consider acceptable efficiency? > > Hydrogen leakage through pipes? What pipes are you talking about? And the > basis for your assumption that it leaks because it is small? > > Tesla battery packs? Yes, very good. Million mile goal? Happy to talk > about goals. 100% green hydrogen within 10-15 years. Million mile goal? I > wish them luck. I own stock in the company. > > Recycling? Virtually none is happening now. That’s a lot of toxic waste. > Fuel cells - 99% recycled is what I’ve heard, far exceeding the Tesla goal, > today. > > What to buy? If a BEV best meets your needs - excellent! I hope you get > the best one for *you*, and hope that its a Tesla. But don’t make any > decisions based on wrong information, and on the fuel cell side, there > seems to be a lot of that that you are considering. > > BTW, you mentioned natural gas - if you are in California, your hydrogen > transportation fuel is likely *not* to be derived from fossil. > > - Mark > > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > > > On Aug 15, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> > wrote: > > > > Numbers help. For instance, an experimental Toyota Camry with three > > carbon wound hydrogen tanks was filled to "700 bar" with hydrogen for > > a range of 300 miles. Nobody who wants to convey pressure to the > > general public uses bars. It is always PSI. 700 bar translates to 5 > > tons per square inch in a car that weighs less than 2 tons. One tank > > manufacturing defect and the Camry goes "ballistic" in some direction. > > > > If hydrogen is made from natural gas, there is always a little CO > > included in the Hydrogen. That over time corrodes the Fuel Cell. The > > rough rule of thumb was that the fuel cell would last "2,000 hours". > > At 30 mph, that's 60K miles. YMMV That leaves electrolysis which is > > very inefficient. > > > > Then there is the transport of hydrogen to refueling stations. > > Hydrogen seeps through pipes because it is such a small atom. If it > > didn't, then you have a whole lot of new infrastructure to build. > > Tanker trucks are another story. They are capacity limited. > > > > I keep looking for genuine breakthroughs and I am not finding them. > > Most of what I read is hype. > > > > Meanwhile, a Tesla pack lasts from 300,000 to 500,000 miles with > > Musk's goal of 1 million miles. A million miles is 20K miles per year > > for 50 years. Basically, a lifetime of driving on one pack. > > > > Tesla has announced a recycling plan where they will be recycling 92 > > to 97% of a pack. > > > > There are too many basic issues with hydrogen fuel cells that have yet > > to be resolved in order to compete with a BEV. > > > > I'm considering purchasing another EV and a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle > > is not on that list of choices for a lot of fundamental reasons. I > > have not seen anything in your arguments to dissuade me from a BEV or > > point me to a viable HFCEV vehicle. > > > > > >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 1:56 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV > >> <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > >> > >> I’m not sure what you want numbers on, but a point can certainly be > made without them, and frequently, numbers can get in the way. > >> > >> - Mark > >> > >> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > >> > >>>> On Aug 14, 2021, at 8:47 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Mark, if you wish to present a point, please at least provide numbers > in your post and a more specific reference. We all have other things to do, > beside repeat research you've already done. > >>> Peri > >>> > >>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> > >>> > >>> ------ Original Message ------ > >>> From: "Mark Abramowitz" <ma...@enviropolicy.com> > >>> To: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion > List" <ev@lists.evdl.org> > >>> Sent: 14-Aug-21 07:09:30 > >>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all > >>> > >>>> I think focus on that article was not “green” hydrogen, but “blue” > hydrogen, made from fossil with carbon sequestered. > >>>> > >>>> All I’ll say about blue hydrogen is that I share some of your > concerns about the ability to really do it. > >>>> > >>>> On the green side, I think that your numbers are way off. > >>>> > >>>> Do a search for Hydrogen 101 and Jack Brouwer for some interesting > numbers. And I can tell you that in terms of the economics, at least one > company that is building production plants as we speak, believes that they > can produce green hydrogen at a cost competitive with “grey” hydrogen, and > within a few years, competitive with diesel, which is really what we need > to compare it with. > >>>> > >>>> - Mark > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > >>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields > >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > >>> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields > >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > >> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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