Colin Hales wrote:
> Sort of...but I think the word 'hardware' is loaded with assumption. I'd say
> that universe literally is a relational construct and that it's appearance
> as 'physical' is what it is like when you are in it. .ie. There's no such
> 'thing' as a 'thing'. :-) It doesn't mean that behaving 'as if' there are
> such things as things is not useful...we survive that way...
>
> 'Substrate' in my intended context would mean more like 'whatever it is that
> the universe is, it is that'. Our predisposition to assume isolated lumpy
> 'thingness' is rather pervasive.
Agreed, I think. 'Hardware' or 'substrate' are ultimately relational
aspects of the computation, but possibly experientially relevant in
some circumstances.
Note that the 3rd person is actually derived from the 1st person
> perspective of the observer! This third person can pretend
> 'waving_around_in_a_circle_ly' is X, but that's all there is...play acting.
>
> The third person perspective is manufactured in the eyes of the beholder.
> Perhaps rather than '1st Person Prime' as an assertion, maybe '3rd person
> not prime' is a lesser and more justified position. The fact is that there
> is no such thing as a 'third person'. What you have is a communicable 1st
> person perspective that yet another 'first person perspective' can find if
> it looks. No-one ever has a 'third person' perspective. Ernest Nagel named a
> book after it: 'the view from nowhere'. If 3rd person does not exist, then
> 1st person is all there is left, isn't it?
This is broadly what I've been attempting to present in my various
posts in this thread, although IMO you have suceeded in summarising it
much more succintly. I would be interested in your comments on this,
and in George's and Bruno's view of your own presentation of this
position.
David
> David Nyman:
>
> <snip>
> > > An _abstract_ computation/model X implemented symbolically on a of a
> > portion
> > > of the structure (a COMPUTER) inside the structure (the UNIVERSE) will
> > see
> > > the universe as "NOT COMPUTER", not some function of the machinations of
> > X,
> > > the model. Eg The first person perspective of a register in a computer
> > > holding a quantity N must be that of being a register in a computer, not
> > > that of 'being' a quantity N.
> >
> > Interestingly you see it as the perspective of the register, rather
> > than some computational entity within X. Does this imply some sort of
> > hardware/ substrate experiential dependency, rather than a purely
> > relational 'program-level' view?
> >
> >
>
> Sort of...but I think the word 'hardware' is loaded with assumption. I'd say
> that universe literally is a relational construct and that it's appearance
> as 'physical' is what it is like when you are in it. .ie. There's no such
> 'thing' as a 'thing'. :-) It doesn't mean that behaving 'as if' there are
> such things as things is not useful...we survive that way...
>
> 'Substrate' in my intended context would mean more like 'whatever it is that
> the universe is, it is that'. Our predisposition to assume isolated lumpy
> 'thingness' is rather pervasive.
>
> Perhaps this:
>
> Waving a bit of it ('stuff', the relational-substrate) around in a circle
> (for example) in indirect 'as-if' symbolic representation as a computation
> of an abstraction X in no way instantiates X or Xness, it instantiates
> 'being_waved_around_in_a_circle_ness' from the point of view of being the
> 'stuff' (1st person) and the behaviour 'waving_around_in_a_circle_ly' (3rd
> person). Note that the 3rd person is actually derived from the 1st person
> perspective of the observer! This third person can pretend
> 'waving_around_in_a_circle_ly' is X, but that's all there is...play acting.
>
> The third person perspective is manufactured in the eyes of the beholder.
> Perhaps rather than '1st Person Prime' as an assertion, maybe '3rd person
> not prime' is a lesser and more justified position. The fact is that there
> is no such thing as a 'third person'. What you have is a communicable 1st
> person perspective that yet another 'first person perspective' can find if
> it looks. No-one ever has a 'third person' perspective. Ernest Nagel named a
> book after it: 'the view from nowhere'. If 3rd person does not exist, then
> 1st person is all there is left, isn't it?
>
> Colin Hales
--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
