On 03/07/07, Torgny Tholerus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: TT: This B-Universe looks exactly the same as A-Universe.
DN: IMO your thought experiment might as well stop right here. No universe can "look" like anything to anyone except a participant in it - i.e. an 'observer' who is an embedded sub-structure of that universe. The "looking" that you refer to here is an illusory artefact of syntax - i.e. the relation is to an imaginative construct which in fact is part of A-Universe. IOW this sort of 'existence' is a metaphor which is relative to *us*, not the self-relation of any realisable B-Universe. What you describe as B-Universe "looking exactly the same" is really an implicit relation to an observer in *that* universe, and consequently that observer is already accepted as conscious. Alternatively, it doesn't "look" like anything to anyone, and hence is by no stretch of the imagination "exactly the same". TT: Is B-Universe possible? DN: If you mean could it exist independently of our imagining it in A-Universe, then yes - as long as we postulate that it exists self-relatively, as opposed to relative-to-us. TT: If we interview an object in B-Universe, what will that object answer, if we ask it: "Are you conscious?"? DN: We cannot interview an object in a self-relative B-Universe, because we can have no relation to it. If an object in a possible (i.e. self-relative) B-Universe interviews another object and asks it "Are you conscious", this equates to "Do you self-relate?", to which the answer would be yes, given your other assumptions. IOW, the possible B-Universe is in fact a clone of A-Universe. Notice that we're not concerned with absolute 'qualities' here because these can only be known to participants. What is relevant is the self-relation and reflexivity of participants, and realising that there is a language trap in trying to perform these thought experiments with mental constructs that allow us the illusion of abstracting 'universes' from their necessarily participatory contexts. David > Imagine that we have a second Universe, that looks exactly the same as > the materialistic parts of our Universe. We may call this second > Universe B-Universe. (Our Universe is A-Universe.) > > This B-Universe looks exactly the same as A-Universe. Where there is a > hydrogen atom in A-Universe, there will also be a hydrogen atom in > B-Universe, and everywhere that there is an oxygen atom in A-Universe, > there will be an oxygen atom i B-universe. The only difference between > A-Universe and B-Universe is that B-Universe is totally free from > consciousness, feelings, minds, souls, and all that kind of stuff. The > only things that exist in B-Universe are atoms reacting with eachother. > All objects in B-Universe behave in exactly the same way as the objects > in A-Universe. > > The objects in B-Universe produces the same kind of sounds as we produce > in A-Universe, and the objects in B-Universe pushes the same buttons on > their computers as we do in our A-Universe. > > Questions: > > Is B-Universe possible? > If we interview an object in B-Universe, what will that object answer, > if we ask it: "Are you conscious?"? > > -- > Torgny Tholerus > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
