Bruno, I enjoyed your pretty comprehensive post! Thanks! John PS> one little question: have you ever been 'present' when in REM? JM
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > Hi Johnathan, Kim, Stathis > > > I agree with you Johnathan. Scientists learn a lot from extreme cases, > and altered states of consciousness is worth to study, even to > understand better what is a "normal" (if that exists) states of > consciousness. > > Now remember that our brain seems to generate already by itself a > numerous of different "naturally", or self-altered, consciousness > states. > The most amazing and well known is the state of the so called > paradoxical sleep, or REM period, or dream state, or reality > simulation state. It is a state unknown by the dinosaurs and the > reptiles. It appears with the birds and then all the homeothermic > animals. Michel Jouvet called it paradoxical, because it makes the > animal hallucinated and paralyzed which makes it an easy prey for the > predator, yet that states has survived 65 millions of years, nobody > really knows why, but we suspect its importance. > > During sleep, with some training you can be "lucid" not just during > the REM paradoxical state, you can be somehow lucid during the slow > wave states, and that gives roughly speaking another collection of > four "natural altered states". Fever, some headache, some stroke could > lead to variants. > > Why altered states? I can find plausible that in situation of stress, > like for a mouse in the mouth of a cat, your probabilities of > surviving are made higher if your brain has a system of self calm > down, if not self lying. It is known that mouse indeed generates > endogenous morphine like pain killer, and as you know the brain is > full of enhancers and inhibitors. Most drugs coming from plants are > molecules looking like our own inhibitors of enhancers, general or > specific. Which means (but don't repeat) that the first big drugs > constructor is the brain itself (don't repeat because make they will > make the brain and computer illegal). > Like anything alive a big part of the work consists in self-repairing > and all those endogenous drugs, well all, depending the amount, can > alter *a little bit more* the state of consciousness, than it does in > normal circumstances, so that, again, a normal state of consciousness > is a sum of altered states in a equilibrium, belonging to some > neighborhood of states. > > And why does plant constructs altered states of consciousness > molecules? In my opinion it has all to do with the incredibly complex > relationships that plant have with animals, in general, and insects in > particular. Many plants have to detract predator insects. By killing > them, or by just smelling like, or imitating the smell of, of the > appearance of the worst predators of the insect (sort of lies!). But > they must also to attract insects, feed them, and manipulate them in > such a way that Mister plant can send its Message to Missis Plant > which leaves at five miles from Him. You bet that with millions of > years they knows about manipulating insects and animals, from predator > and pollinator to consumers. > > And which explains perhaps why there are so much medicinal and > "psychedelic" plants (entheogen). > > Now I agree with you Johnathan, that for discussing about > consciousness, we should distinguish between drugs which alter the > mood and the perception, like cannabis and alcohol from hallucinogen, > like some mushrooms and cactus, and dissociators like Ketamine. Salvia > Divinorum, strictly speaking, is a bit of both a dissociator and an > hallucinogen. The first alter your "actual" consciousness, the second > triggers an actual different in nature experience, like an out of body > experience, or a near death experience, or a dream, or a dream-like > scenario. Typically and without training you don't remain lucid: you > forget you are under the product. You can't take Salvia casually, you > take it to live a particular experience which requires your attention, > and preparation. > > Now, I would not compare the effect of Salvia with anything produced > by any other entheogen. When smoked, it produces an effect which lasts > in general between 3 and 6 minutes. Unlike cannabis, alcohol, LSD, and > many others, the effect is disphoric, meaning not typically pleasant. > Animals does not push twice on the "button" with salvia, showing in > particular it is not addictive. Normal, "my thesis" in four minutes, > the poor animals! > > The effect are quite different from people to people, and according to > the concentration of the salvinorin molecules. You find it from 1X > (the leaves), to 5X, 10X, ... 40X (beyond it seems to me only the > price grows up, not the effect). > > Many meet typical archetypes (elves, carnival wheel, clown). Some will > relive childhood events, or complete life of someone else. Most will > talk about a strong pulling or pushing rotation, physically felt, > which can sometimes leads to being cut in billions parts and send to > as much parallel realities (some can panic here). All talk about > realities and perception of realities. many% (on about 1000 reports) > talk explicitly about feeling a "feminine presence", which "teach" you > something, the last point of it seeming unmemorable. Some lives the > experience very badly. In my own experiment, with 30 participants (one > by one), they made rewarding experiences, you just need to be patient > and to increase the amount of concentration incrementally, and to > encourage the respect of the plant. Most learns this by experience. > > Is it safe? The effect are impressive, but apparently not dangerous. > If you look at the YouTube Video, you see that used in the worst > conditions it leads, in the worse case only to bruises and nightmares. > (With alpinism, a slight error can kill you and others). Like > cannabis, no overdose level exists. Given big amount of > "infinityX" (pure salvinorin) to rats makes then "sleep" for 4 > minutes, and then they resume their activities. It is estimated that > on the last 2 millions of American who smoked salvia, there are zero > death related to it, nor even emergency calls. There are thousand of > death related to alcohol consumption, and many more injuries, just to > compare. > > Salvia is above all a medicinal plant. Incredibly enough, I did cure a > severe migraine recently. The person told me she did try all possible > medications, without success, she has to just keep calm in the dark > for 12 hours. A little hit of leave made it disappear in three > minutes. It is one of the main use among the Mazatec. It helps for > nasal congestion too, it helps for sleep (always 1X here). > It is antidepressant, and it is antiaddictive. It is a medication > against drugs! > > And yes Kim, it is easy (far more than cannabis which is already easy) > to grow your own plant and to multiply it. It is alas less easy to > find the plant, there are no seeds available, because Salvia Divinorum > has literally abandon sexual reproduction (I think she did have its > own predator as pollinator, explaining the subtleties of her message). > You don't need light, she hates light, she loves the dark, heat and > water a lot. She lives, or at least her ancestors were used to live > (because since 700 years she has been cultivated by the Mexican > Mazatec) in dark hot and humid forest, in the nightlight of the day > within the shadows of trees with many branches. Below 0° (celsius) she > dies. > > I am glad I found my master. A plant! (grin). But I will continue to > explain UDA+AUDA for those who prefer the pure third person > communicable way. Don't worry, (or worry, perhaps :). It is a > question of taste. Reality is creative, beyond wonders and surprises. > People who does not like wonders, surprises should not study computer > science and logics, neither physics, and should avoid Lewis Carroll > and Salvia Divinorum. That plant likes joking. Here a video of someone > very sensible, and a bit unprepared, who seems to appreciate the joke: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1QavlZe2H8&feature=channel_page > > About that plant, I would like to add that I am certainly in favor of > some regulation. But criminalization of it is no less than criminal. > The plant becomes really dangerous: it can send you to hell (jail), > even without smoking it! > We should have laws forbidding defamation about products related to > health. Against the abuse of systematic well known errors of logic, > the ignorance of what is a trance states, etc. > > Best, > > Bruno > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---