Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 30 Mar 2009, at 14:02, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > >> 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: >> >>> Hi Kelly, and others, >>> >>> Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually >>> last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with you, I >>> know >>> only one case of an experience lasting 20 minutes. I am happy you >>> found >>> your experience interesting. You can consult and discuss your >>> experience, and those of others here: >>> http://www.entheogen.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=135 >>> >>> Now the real question is, does that experience helped in providing, >>> for >>> example, an answer to my last remark to Quentin? >>> >>> I quote the question again. It is important concerning >>> comp-immortality, and eventually how to derive physics from computer >>> science. >>> I do think such a question is difficult, and show the weakness in >>> identifying the self with personal memories, and this justifies the >>> necessity of the AUDA move, I think. >>> >>> Of course, if you enjoy dream-state-like, you can enjoy Salvia >>> without >>> troubling yourself with hard metaphysical questions. Yet I would be >>> interesting if Quentin or Stathis, or anyone, could acknowledge a >>> conceptual difficulty here. >>> >>> <<Hmmm... >>> I ask you, and others, this question. What is the probability "now", >>> that you will find yourself in Washington and Moscow the 24 december >>> 2009, when you are annihilated in Brussels, now, (17 March 2009) and >>> reconstituted in both Moscow and Washington the 18 March 2009, say)? >>> The problem is that the reconstitution machine did dysfunction in >>> Washington, so that, from the 18 March 2009 up to the 20 Augustus >>> 2009 >>> you (the you in Washington) suffered a "total amnesia". And then, >>> "you" recovered slowly and progressively from that through adequate >>> medication up to a total recall, the 23 December (and none of yous >>> did >>> move from W or M). >>> >>> Note that with high concentrated extract of Salvia Divinorum, people >>> can "suffer" (or "enjoy") a total amnesia, where you forget not just >>> your name and memories of life, but you forget even what is a person, >>> what is space, what is time. Yet you remain conscious. Life >>> appears as >>> a dream, that you recall vaguely, and then forget, and then you >>> forget >>> you did that dream. Yet "you" come back. (See the reports, I don't >>> encourage its consumption, but anyone interested by consciousness can >>> be interested by such reports).>> >>> >> It does indeed present conceptual difficulties. The problem is that >> our notion of personal identity is dependent on the world in which we >> evolved, where these duplication experiments don't happen. The >> conceptual difficulties vanish if we say that there is no such >> metaphysical entity as a person persisting through time, but rather a >> set of observer moments, each one complete in itself and independent >> from the others, which only associate due to their information content >> - their psychological connectedness. In other words, we all survive >> only momentarily, but we have the illusion of persisting through time >> due to memory, quasi-memory or partial memory. >> > > I agree, but this does not answer the question. To extract the > physical laws we have to define that psychological connectness, and it > refers to the notion of person. It is no metaphysical than atoms > molecules or galaxies. Those are also mind composition which can be > considered as relative stable and useful constructs. We have to relate > those things, to extract information from the assumptions. The point > is no more philosophical. >
It's here that I find problems in the idea of person as sequence of conscious moments. During most moments I am not conscious of memories or even of my identity, but in some sense I maintain the sequence of experiences. I speculate that the information content Stathis refers to is mostly subconscious. But to have a subconscious implies a non-conscious substrate, e.g. a material brain. Brent > >> I would consider a period of consciousness with complete destruction >> of the ego, such as induced by Salvia Divinorum, as equivalent to a >> period of unconsciousness or an unrelated person's consciousness, >> provided there were no memory of the event as the experience was >> resolving. >> > > But the amnesic, the dreamer and the salvia experiencer have a memory > of the events. Kelly did not dream that he disappears, but that he was > 7 old. To eliminate the first person white rabbits, the devil comes > from the fact that we have to use *some* notion of person. > > Bruno > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---