Hi, 2009/5/8 Torgny Tholerus <tor...@dsv.su.se>: > > Bruno Marchal skrev: >> On 07 May 2009, at 18:29, Torgny Tholerus wrote: >> >> >>> Bruno Marchal skrev: >>> >>> >>>> you are human, all right? >>>> >>> I look exactly as a human. When you look at me, you will not be >>> able to know if I am a human or a zombie, because I behave exacly like a >>> human. >>> >> So you believe that human are not zombie, and you agree that you are >> not human. >> Where do you come from? Vega? Centaur? >> > > I come from Stockholm, Sweden. I was constructed by my parents. In > reality I think that all humans are zombies, but because I am a polite > person, I do not tell the other zombies that they are zombies. I do not > want to hurt the other zombies by telling them the truth.
If we are zombie... you cannot hurt us, a zombie can't be hurt, a zombie is a thing, a zombie is totally like a rock from it's inner live pov. A zombie can't think, a zombie can't "behave like" from its point of view because a zombie has no point of view. >>> Yes it is right. There is no infinity of natural numbers. But the >>> natural numbers are UNLIMITED, you can construct as many natural >>> numbers as you want. But how many numbers you construct, the number of >>> numbers will always be finite. You can never construct an infinite number >>> of >>> natural numbers. >>> >> This is no more ultrafinitism. Just the usal finitism or intuitionism. >> It seems I recall you have had a stronger view on this point. >> Ontologically I am neutral on this question. With comp I don't need >> any actual infinity in the third person ontology. Infinities are not >> avoidable from inside, at least when the inside view begins some self- >> reflexion studies. >> > > I was an ultrafinitist before, but I have changed my mind. Now I accept > that you can say that the natural numbers are unlimited. I only deny > actual infinities. The set of all natural numbers are always finite, > but you can always increase the set of all natural number by adding more > natural numbers to it. Then it's not the set of *all* natural numbers. You do nothing by adding a number... you don't create numbers by writing them down, you don't invent properties about them, it's absurd... especially for a zombie. >>> An ordinary computer can never be arithmetically unsound. >>> >> ? (this seems to me plainly false, unless you mean "perfect" for >> "ordinary". But computers can be as unsound as you and me. >> There is no vaccine against soundness: all computers can be unsound >> soo or later. there is no perfect computer. Most gods are no immune, >> you have to postulate the big unnameable One and be very near to It, >> to have some guaranty ... if any ... >> > > OK, I misunderstood what you meant by "unsound", I thougth you meant > something like "unlogical". But now I see that you mean something like > "irrational". And I sure am irrational. You're not, remember you're a zombie hence there is no *you*. >> >>> I do not want to be tortured, I behave as if I try to avoid that as >>> strongly as I can. Because I behave in this way, I answer "no" to >>> your question, because that answer will decrease the probability of you >>> torturing me. >>> >> Do you realize that to defend your point you are always in the >> obligation, when talking about any first person notion, like >> consciousness, fear, desire, to add "I behave like ....". But if you >> can do that successfully you will make me doubt that you are a zombie. >> Or ... do you think a zombie could eventually find a correct theory of >> consciousness, so that he can correctly fake consciousness, and delude >> the humans? >> > > An intelligent zombie can correctly fake consciousness, and I am an > intelligent zombie. A zombie is not intelligent, a zombie simply isn't. There is no consciousness in a zombie by definition, so a zombie is not and can't be anything. >>>> 3) Do you have any "sort-of" feeling, insight, dreams, impression, >>>> sensations, subjective or mental life, ... ? >>>> >>> I behave as if I have "sort-of" feelings, I behave as if I have >>> insights, I behave as if I have dreams, I behave as if I have >>> impressions, I behave as if I have sensations, I behave as if I have a >>> subjective or mental life, ... >>> >> As I said. But if you know that, I mean if you can behave like if you >> were knowing that, it would mean that such words do have some meaning >> for you. >> >> How can you know that you are not conscious? Why do you behave like if >> you are conscious, and then "confess" to us that you are not. Why >> don't you behave like if you were not conscious. Should not a zombie >> defend the idea that he is conscious, if he behaves like if he was >> conscious. > > If you ask me if I am conscious, I will reply "yes". But I am so > intelligent You're not, you are a zombie. There is no you. > that I can look at myself from the outside, You can't, you have no self. > and then I > understand why I behave like I do. > I can see that all my behaviour is You can't, there is no you and you can't see anything, you are a zombie. > explained by chemical reactions in my brain, and there is no more than > that. So when I talk about myself on the meta level, then I can say > that I have no consciousness. But most people are not intelligent > enough to realize that. > > -- > Torgny Tholerus > Regards, Quentin -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---