Dear Bruno, you picked my 'just added' small after-remark from my post and I thought for a second that it was Brent's reply. Then your signature explained that it was YOUR stance on life (almost) (- I search for even more proper distinctions to that term). Maybe we should scrap the term altogether and use it only as 'folklore' - applicable as in conventional 'bio'. . Considering 'conscious' (+ness?) the responsiveness (reflexively?) to *any*relations is hard to separate from the general idea we usually carry as *'life'.*
I like your bon mot on 'artificial' putting me into my place in 'folklore' vocabulary. Indeed, - in my naive meanings - whatever occurs occurs by a mechanism - entailed by relations - is considerable as artificial (or: *naturally occurring change*), be it by humans or by a hurricane. what I may object to, is your "ONLY" in the last par: it presumes omniscience. Even your 'lived experience' is identified in anthropomorphic ways (*they have our experiences). * ** *Thanks for the reply* ** *JohnM* ** ** ** On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > On 18 Jan 2010, at 16:35, John Mikes wrote: > > Is a universal mchine 'live'? >> > > > I would say yes, despite the concrete artificial one still needs humans in > its reproduction cycle. But we need plants and bacteria. > I think that all machines, including houses and garden are alive in that > sense. Cigarets are alive. They have a a way to reproduce. Universal machine > are alive and can be conscious. > > If we define "artificial" by "introduced by humans", we can see that the > difference between artificial and natural is ... artificial (and thus > natural!). Jacques Lafitte wrote in 1911 (published in 1931) a book where he > describes the rise of machines and technology as a collateral living > processes. > > Only for Löbian machine, like you, me, but also Peano Arithmetic and ZF , I > would say I am pretty sure that they are reflexively conscious like us. > Despite they have no lived experiences at all. (Well, they have our > experiences, in a sense. We are their experiences). > > Bruno > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > > >--
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