On Jun 20, 10:57 pm, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com> wrote: > It does occur when you have interaction with the environment... your mind > obviously got feedback/input from the environment through the senses.. .and yes it got the input and is not getting the input.we can think of only what we have experienced.. > so > if no input is given, how can the mind can interract with it. it is proved in noetic science that our thoughts(only thoughts and not the actions due to those thoughts)affect our physical environment.
> And the mind act on the environment through the body. I don't know of any > instance of deincarnate mind which would be the only way not to interract > with the environment. > > Your setting which cuts off all 5 senses, obviously disconnect the mind from > the environment (input *and* output, because without senses how can you feel > your body and act with it ?) > > Quentin > > 2011/6/20 selva <selvakr1...@gmail.com> > > > > > by saying "it does not occur in the situation i am describing.."so it > > does occur when our sense are present.in that case,it implies that our > > thoughts are affecting the environment through our senses.now how is > > that possible?senses are unidirectional. the situation i am describing > > becomes insignificant when the converse (thoughts affecting the > > environment )is considered > > > On Jun 20, 10:45 pm, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > 2011/6/20 selva <selvakr1...@gmail.com> > > > > > On Jun 20, 6:32 pm, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > > > > On 19 Jun 2011, at 19:35, selva wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 19, 5:21 pm, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > > > > >> Hi selva, > > > > > > >> On 17 Jun 2011, at 22:10, selva wrote: > > > > > > >>> 1.consider a person cut off from all his senses,all his 5 senses > > > > > >>> shut > > > > > >>> down and now he is about to find a solution for a problem. Does > > his > > > > > >>> environment (or rather,positions of atoms/energy around > > > > > >>> him, ) ,affects his solution ? > > > > > > >> Assuming mechanism, and some relatively high substitution level, > > the > > > > > >> answer is no. > > > > > > >>> will there be different solution at different environments ? > > > > > > >> There is no reason. The environment can only play a role through > > > > > >> interaction, or interference, but this will not occur in the > > > > > >> situation > > > > > >> that you are describing. > > > > > > 1)then the converse should also be true right?that our thoughts > > don't > > > > > > affect our environment..? > > > > > > You are right. But only in the setting that you describe, where a > > > > > person is isolated from the environment. > > > > > This seems to me rather obvious, so I might be missing something. > > > > > > > in that case,what about noetic sciences ? Are you suggesting it > > > > > > doesn't exist at all ? > > > > > > It exists, and is fundamental. I argue that if we accept the > > mechanist > > > > > hypothesis, then the noetic constitutes the fundamental science(s). I > > > > > provide the math from extracting both quanta and qualia from the > > > > > noetic. Physics continue to exist, but is a a study of an emerging > > > > > mind invariant. > > > > > I remind that materialism (even weak materialism: the doctrine that > > > > > primitive or primary (aristotelian) matter exists is logically > > > > > incompatible with Occam and Mechanism, despite many materialist > > > > > believe the contrary. > > > > but noetic science has showed that our physical environment is > > > > affected by our thoughts.Definitely they are not doing it through our > > > > senses,not through our actions.then how do they do it ?previously you > > > > mentioned that there is no interference between our mind and > > > > environment. > > > > It seems to me that he said "but this will not occur **in the situation > > that > > > you are describing**. > > > > Not that it does not occur. > > > > Quentin > > > > > > > 2)will gravity(acceleration of the particles in brain) affect the > > > > > > solution ? > > > > > > As far as the local computations made by the brain are well described > > > > > at the level of particles interactions, gravity is playing a role, no > > > > > less than electromagnetism or any other forces describing (locally) > > > > > its current brain state evolution. > > > > > > Bruno > > > > > > >>> 2.consider an artificial brain fed with signals similar to normal > > > > > >>> brain and (for arguments sake )this artificial brain and a normal > > > > > >>> human brain have computational similarities...then will they have > > > > > >>> similar response? or as they are made of different materials > > there > > > > > >>> would be differences in response ? > > > > > > >> It really depends on the mechanist assumption and the choice of > > the > > > > > >> substitution level. The mechanist assumption just assumes the > > > > > >> existence of a substitution level where you are Turing emulable. > > If > > > > > >> the level is very low, the "environment" might be a part of your > > > > > >> "generalized brain", and it is logically possible that you have to > > > > > >> describe it at the Planck scale or below, but most > > neurophilosophers > > > > > >> and physician believe that the generalized brain *is* the > > biological > > > > > >> brain. > > > > > > >> The 'reversal consequence' of Digital Mechanism does not depend on > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> substitution level. It depends only on the existence of such a > > level. > > > > > > >> Bruno > > > > > > >>http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > > Groups "Everything List" group. > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > > > > > . > > > > > > For more options, visit this group athttp:// > > > > groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > > > > > > . > > > > > >http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > > > > "Everything List" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > > > -- > > > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Everything List" group. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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