On 09 Jun 2012, at 23:59, Nick Prince wrote:
On Jun 9, 11:17 am, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 08 Jun 2012, at 20:52, Nick Prince wrote:
On Jun 8, 8:45 am, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
Hi Nick,
This is a bit unclear. How is U and D distinguished from the
(absence
of) first person view?
I've drawn the branches so that they represent a 3p viewpoint of
someone observing us over time - i.e. we are schrodingers cat! So U
means observer sees us as unconsciouss and D means observer sees
us as
dead. The ist person view that we see would always be C according
to
the branches I've drawn, provided that you discard all branches that
have death D preceded by U. I wish I could draw it but I'm
limited on
this user interface.
ist branch is C -> U or C then from the U of this branch, we get U
or
D or C
I'm bothered by the fact that the observer would end up seeing
zombies! If you have a C->U or C and then if the new branch from
the U
is U -> D or U or C then 1p (cat) would see only C as expected. His
route woud be C->C because the whole second branch is deleted.
However the observer that goes down the U branch would see the cat
go
into some sort of scenario resulting in U or C or D. If it turns
out that C occurs then the cat is seen as consciouss and yet it is
disjoint from the conscioussness of the original cat. I'll have to
really think about this one in terms of the early steps of your UDA.
OK. In my opinion, based on the post, I would say that U and D are
equivalent.
There are no zombies, nor "absolute" bodies.
Hi Bruno
Yes I've re thought this one through and I agree - no zombies.
Given that very minimal change in the brain seems to be able to
send
someone in the "amnesic arithmetical heaven", as illustrated by
some
drugs, I am not sure we should worry about QM immortality, which
arises itself from the comp immortality. It illustrates also that
backtracking might be more probable. Technically this is
difficult to
compute, and if QM is true yet comp false, I would worry more on
this.
I do appreciate that people are aware that notions of "after-life"
makes sense, and are hard to avoid with current theories. Yet,
without
handling the whole theology, and not just its physical aspects, we
can
come easily to weird conclusions. With comp there are too much open
problems to decide on this in any quick way. Of course we can
speculate. It is a fascinating subject.
What do you mean by backtracking?
Imagine that you decide to kill yourself with an atomic bomb, so as
to
maximize your annihilation probability. Then it might be that your
probability of surviving in a world where you are just not deciding
to
kill yourself is bigger than surviving from some quantum tunnel
effect
through the bomb's released energy. In that sense, the effect of the
bomb makes you backtrack up to a reality where you are just not using
the bomb.
Ok I'll look into this - I got a copy of Saibal's paper "Can we
change the past by forgetting"
I have not read it.
I'll try to get round to reading it. I'm not sure whether this
involves abandoning causality as we know it though?
Causality is not a notion which makes sense to me, except as some
modality of self-reference, making it an higher emerging notion.
If such backtracking occurred though could we really be aware of it?
Not in normal circumstances, but in arithmetic, not everything is
normal, and "normal" is relative too, from inside.
I really don't know, but some reports of some drugs describe
experiences which can look like some backtracking from the realted 1-
person reports.
Above our level, legalizing marijuana would already be a form of
backtracking like *any* acknowledgment of having be wrong, or lying.
Now, when we don't remember the lesson of history, and are in the
state of doing a sempiternal same error, we can also see it as a
backtracking. Looping programs bactrack all the time, without knowing,
for if they know, and have degrees of freedom, they can change the
circle into a spiral, and "progress".
Bruno
To solve this is really a question of comparing the measure on the
computational histories, including the one with partial amnesia
(which
makes things more difficult, but already more quantum like, because
amnesia might explain the fusion of computations, from the first
person point of view). Reports of dreams and drug experiences
involving partial momentary amnesia suggest that such a backtracking
is highly plausible, imo. And the existence of quantum erasing
suggests that our first person plural sharable computations allows
such a backtracking to occur in "nature". Such a backtracking
(proposed once by Saibal Mitra on this list) can also be used to
defend the idea that there is only one person, and that personal
identity is a relative "illusory" notion. We might be a "God" playing
a trick to himself, notably by becoming amnesic on who and what he
is.
Bruno
What, you ask, was the beginning of it all?
And it is this ...
Existence that multiplied itself
For sheer delight of being
And plunged into numberless trillions of forms
So that it might
Find
Itself
Innumerably (Aurobindo)
Bruno
On 08 Jun 2012, at 01:11, Nick Prince wrote:
I’ve just read the following paper :
http://istvanaranyosi.net/resources/Should%20we%20fear%20qt
%20final.pdf
which argues that it is possible to avoid the descent into
decrepitude
that seems to follow from the quantum theory of immortality (QTI).
Aranyosi argues that this is plausible on the grounds that any
death
branch would be preceded by an unconsciousness branch. Under
normal
QTI circumstances, if we were Schrödinger’s cat we would come
across
the (3p) node (L= Lives, D= Dies):
DDDDDD
LLLLLLL
LLLLLLL
To see the cat’s (1p), view we discard the DDDD branch, but we
will
more than likely be harmed at each branch and therefore become
more
decrepit.
If I understand it correctly, and keeping things simple, Aranyosi
seems to be arguing that, by assuming that unconsciousness
precedes a
death branch, then for 3p we have two types of branching: (where
C=Conscious, U = unconscious). First a triple branch:
D DDDX
UUUUU..UUUUUUUUUU
C CCCCCCC
And also a double branch:
CCCCCCCC
CCCCC
UUUUUUU
Any combinations of these can be put together by matching U’s or
C’s
to make a tree.
A 1p subjective experience comes by discarding all branches that
have death D preceded by U. Hence the first type of diagram would
never be experienced and the cat sees only the C to C/U branching.
You can join two of the second type of diagram – a CUC route
simply
being sleep or fainting or anaesthetic etc.
I would argue though that U can still occur if one suffers
significant
physical damage and hence decrepitude still follows?
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Thanks for kind reply Bruno
Nick
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