On 19 Aug 2012, at 21:14, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 18 Aug 2012, at 17:55, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 15 Aug 2012, at 14:46, Roger wrote:
But humans are not entirely governed from outside, they have their
own agendas.
We have a top level agenda: maximise self-satisfaction, and
minimize self-dissatisfaction. This can be programmed in very few
lines, but needs a very long time to bring sophisticated being like
us.
But doesn't concept or computation of "self" makes this statement
on self's agenda much less clear than it looks?
Is "self" some conceptual cartoon or program, like individual
isolated humanist "bag-of-flesh + brain soup", a consumer in a
market with bank account, a career, set of personal experiences, a
class idea, is it a tribal idea, or is it some esoteric notion of
"Gaian world soul", a family notion etc.?
It is more like a control structure. The self is really defined by
the ability of some program to refer to their own code, even in the
course of a computation, like an amoeba can build another similar
amoeba. Or like when you look into a mirror and recognize yourself.
It is the third person self, like in "I have two legs". Then the
math shows that a non nameable deeper self is attached with it, and
obeys a different logic (the soul).
Satisfying oneself, in nature, is mainly drinking when thirsty,
eating when hungry, mating, peeing, etc.
But with its big neocortex, the man has made things more complex. By
incompleteness (or akin) he is never fully satisfied, want more, get
addicted, refer to authorities, and then to forget how happiness is
easy.
Convincing, but I am less sure. Particularly because 1p perspective
has apparently many selves (the list I mentioned: "bag of flesh,
consumer, career, family, citizen etc.")
"bag" of flesh is more 3p than 1p. The 1p is really the unique <here
and now> current feeling/subjective experience. Consumer, family,
career, citizen, ... are 3p attributes, it seems to me.
and the distinction between "self" and "other" is subject to
transformation.
How could that be? Is not "I am my (1p)- self" tautological? Our
memory, character, personality, name, ...can change, but not the "1-
I". Indeed that participate to the idea that there is only one 1-I in
the entire reality. One or two perhaps.
Sometimes boundaries are insurmountable and sometimes they vanish.
Time influences this perhaps.
But according to you, building on incompleteness, if we forget/
ignore Gödel and comp enough, happiness is easier :) This is not
good marketing.
I did not say that, on the contrary. Gödel can help to grasp the roots
of our perpetual non satisfaction. If the human were using the neo-
cortext for Gödel, that would be OK. I was alluding of the the use of
the neo-cortex in the projection that we do on projection that other
could do, which can give too much importance of the "little ego", when
people are no more pleased by buying a car and driving if the car does
not impress enough the neighbors, or when a child feels the need to
attract all the time the parent's attention to feel to exist, etc. It
is a complex phenomenon, and it might be abnormally complex for the
urban humans.
Bruno
m
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