Hi Bruno, On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
> > On 19 Aug 2012, at 21:14, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: > > > > On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > >> >> On 18 Aug 2012, at 17:55, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>wrote: >> >>> >>> On 15 Aug 2012, at 14:46, Roger wrote: >>> >>> But humans are not entirely governed from outside, they have their own >>> agendas. >>> >>> >>> >>> We have a top level agenda: maximise self-satisfaction, and minimize >>> self-dissatisfaction. This can be programmed in very few lines, but needs a >>> very long time to bring sophisticated being like us. >>> >>> >> But doesn't concept or computation of "self" makes this statement on >> self's agenda much less clear than it looks? >> >> Is "self" some conceptual cartoon or program, like individual isolated >> humanist "bag-of-flesh + brain soup", a consumer in a market with bank >> account, a career, set of personal experiences, a class idea, is it a >> tribal idea, or is it some esoteric notion of "Gaian world soul", a family >> notion etc.? >> >> >> It is more like a control structure. The self is really defined by the >> ability of some program to refer to their own code, even in the course of a >> computation, like an amoeba can build another similar amoeba. Or like when >> you look into a mirror and recognize yourself. It is the third person self, >> like in "I have two legs". Then the math shows that a non nameable deeper >> self is attached with it, and obeys a different logic (the soul). >> >> Satisfying oneself, in nature, is mainly drinking when thirsty, eating >> when hungry, mating, peeing, etc. >> But with its big neocortex, the man has made things more complex. By >> incompleteness (or akin) he is never fully satisfied, want more, get >> addicted, refer to authorities, and then to forget how happiness is easy. >> >> >> > Convincing, but I am less sure. Particularly because 1p perspective has > apparently many selves (the list I mentioned: "bag of flesh, consumer, > career, family, citizen etc.") > > > "bag" of flesh is more 3p than 1p. The 1p is really the unique <here and > now> current feeling/subjective experience. Consumer, family, career, > citizen, ... are 3p attributes, it seems to me. > > During and after sports: "I" feel like a single bag of flesh needing replenishment of fluids, minerals etc. During good improvisation, dance, or lovemaking: "I" feels closer to "woman, man" playing the universe, vanishing in climaxes and orgasm, similar to Salvia or Ecodelic vanishing/minimizing of 1p. During precious family moment: "I" feels secondary to doing what's best for all. Similarly, working with great people, or surfing the net, 'I" feels like a tiny node in sort of Vernadsky "Noosphere", although perhaps broader than limiting to human thought operations, than de Chardin and Vernadsky suggest, including plants or other kinds of entity. During passport control: "I" feels like isolated machine/organism with bizarre designation document, as Heidegger put it in *Being in Time*, "thrown into a world against our will" (we finally don't know, of course... but 1p feels this), in an ocean of alien machines/organisms. Even though these are 3p attributes as described here. The qualia of these situations, operations of consciousness are quite different to going to bathroom. Empathy, taken as "I understand person x, because I am or feel to be person x on some level. "I" knows what that is like." At moment of deep insight, astronaut Mitchell of Apollo 14 has brief moment to relax: *Then looking beyond the earth itself to the magnificense of the larger scene, there was a startling recognition that the nature of the universe was not as I had been taught. My understanding of the separate distinctness and relative independence of movement of those cosmic bodies was shattered... ubiquitous harmony. *Here Mitchell apparently forgets "egoic" 1p. In moments of experience of this kind of insight, realizing how wrong 1p was, it is perturbed and apparently reconstituted after the insight has been digested somehow. There are countless other situations in which 1p feels 1p of other organism/machine, like seeing somebody hurt, or like being more "we" with close relations, or like 3p observing herself/himself in a mirror as you say, or complete dissolution of 1p as described above. This might look fuzzy, in that its hard to imagine genuinely leaving 1p interface. But more Salvia, sex, space travels, and finally death might convince that boundaries are less clear; in any case these distinctions are not merely pure semantics of subjective perspective; they govern our actions quite concretely 1p morphing into some 3p notion of "respectable citizen" during a job interview. Incommunicable 1p truth is shareable when reasoning is shut down. Not just in trance modes of ecstasy, but looking into somebody's eyes in the deathbed, and crying even though 1p will not die and this death will not impact 1p biological functions or survival. This all to offer possibility that 1p to 3p distinctions are more like breathing membrane and less like totally fixed boundary. > > > and the distinction between "self" and "other" is subject to > transformation. > > > How could that be? Is not "I am my (1p)- self" tautological? Our memory, > character, personality, name, ...can change, but not the "1-I". Indeed that > participate to the idea that there is only one 1-I in the entire reality. > One or two perhaps. > > > That's the heart of problem I'm getting at. One or two or three or... > > Sometimes boundaries are insurmountable and sometimes they vanish. Time > influences this perhaps. > > But according to you, building on incompleteness, if we forget/ignore > Gödel and comp enough, happiness is easier :) This is not good marketing. > > > I did not say that, on the contrary. Gödel can help to grasp the roots of > our perpetual non satisfaction. If the human were using the neo-cortext for > Gödel, that would be OK. I was alluding of the the use of the neo-cortex in > the projection that we do on projection that other could do, which can give > too much importance of the "little ego", when people are no more pleased by > buying a car and driving if the car does not impress enough the neighbors, > or when a child feels the need to attract all the time the parent's > attention to feel to exist, etc. It is a complex phenomenon, and it might > be abnormally complex for the urban humans. > > Bruno > > Yes, of course. That's beautiful... I was merely joking badly ;) m You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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