Hi William R. Buckley OK, DNA is wetware If you like.
But I am conscious, as are all living entities, and that's the 1p problem, as I understand it, even for a bacterium, and that cannot be solved because it is indeterminate. To be alive, one must be able to think on one's own, to be able to make choices on one's own, not choices made by soft- or wetware. To have intelligence, one must have a self, and software cannot even emulate that. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/30/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: William R. Buckley Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-29, 13:22:31 Subject: RE: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Roger: It is my contention, quite to the dislike of biologists generally methinks, that DNA is a physical representation of program. Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form – i.e. DNA). wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 10:07 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Hi Richard Ruquist Pre-ordained is a religious position And we aren't controlled by software. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/29/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-29, 07:37:02 Subject: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence Roger, Do you think that humans do not function in accord with pre-ordained hardware and software? Richard On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote: ROGER: Hi Bruno Marchal I don't agree. Machines must function according to their software and hardware, neither of which are their own. BRUNO: A robot can already answer questions ,and talk, about its own software and hardware. The language Smalltalk makes this explicit by a command "self", but this can be done in all programming language by the use of a famous diagonalization trick, which I sum up often by: if Dx gives "x"x"", then D"D" gives "D"D"". D"D" gives a description of itself. You get self-duplicators and other self-referential construct by generalization of that constructive diagonal. A famous theorem by Kleene justifies its existence for all universal systems. ROGER:?ither the operation follows pre-established rules or it does not. If any operation follows rules, then it cannot come up with anything new, it is merely following instructions so that any such result can be traced back in principle to some algorithm. If any operation does not follow rules, it can only generate gibberish. Which is to say that synthetic statements cannot be generated by analytic thought. More below, but I will stop here for now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Did the robot design its hardware ? No. So it is constrained by the hardware. Did the robot write the original software that can self-construct (presumably according to some rules of construction) ? No. And so, machines cannot do anything not intended by the software author in his software program and constrained by the hardware. What you are missing here is the aspect of free will or at least partly free will. Intelligence is the ability to make choices on one's own. That means freely, of its own free will. Following no rules of logic. Transcending logic, not limited by it. BRUNO: Do you really believe that Mandelbrot expected the Mandelbrot set? He said itself that it has come as a surprise, despite years of observation of fractals in nature. ROGER: OK, it came intuitively, freely,?e did not arrive at it ?y logic, although it no doubt has its own logic. BRUNO: Very simple program ("simple" meaning few Ks), can lead to tremendously complex behavior. If you understand the basic of computer science, you understand that by building universal machine, we just don't know what we are doing. To keep them slaves will be the hard work, and the wrong work. This was the issue you brought up before, which at that time I thought was miraculous, the Holy Grail I had been seeking. But on reflection, I no longer believe that.?IMHO anything that??omputer does still must follow its own internal logic, contrained by its?ardware constraints and the constraint of its language, even if those calculations are of infinite complexity. Nothing magical can happen. There ought to be a theorem showing that that must be true. So machines cannot make autonomous decisions, they can only make decisions intended by the software programmer. BRUNO: You hope. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/28/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-27, 09:52:32 Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence On 27 Aug 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb IMHO I don't think that computers can have intelligence because intelligence consists of at least one ability: the ability to make autonomous choices (choices completely of one's own). Computers can do nothing on their own, they can only do what softward and harfdware tells them to do. Another, closely related, reason, is that there must be an agent that does the choosing, and IMHO the agent has to be separate from the system. Godel, perhaps, I speculate. I will never insist on this enough. All the G?el's stuff shows that machines are very well suited for autonomy. In a sense, most of applied computer science is used to help controlling what can really become uncontrollable and too much autonomous, a bit like children education. Computers are not stupid, we work a lot for making them so. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/27/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-26, 14:56:29 Subject: Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers On 8/26/2012 10:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 25 Aug 2012, at 12:35, Jason Resch wrote: > >> >> I agree different implementations of intelligence have different >> capabilities and >> roles, but I think computers are general enough to replicate any >> intelligence (so long >> as infinities or true randomness are not required). > > And now a subtle point. Perhaps. > > The point is that computers are general enough to replicate intelligence EVEN > if > infinities and true randomness are required for it. > > Imagine that our consciousness require some ORACLE. For example under the > form of a some > non compressible sequence 11101000011101100011111101010110100001... (say) > > Being incompressible, that sequence cannot be part of my brain at my > substitution level, > because this would make it impossible for the doctor to copy my brain into a > finite > string. So such sequence operates "outside my brain", and if the doctor copy > me at the > right comp level, he will reconstitute me with the right "interface" to the > oracle, so I > will survive and stay conscious, despite my consciousness depends on that > oracle. > > Will the UD, just alone, or in arithmetic, be able to copy me in front of > that oracle? > > Yes, as the UD dovetails on all programs, but also on all inputs, and in this > case, he > will generate me successively (with large delays in between) in front of all > finite > approximation of the oracle, and (key point), the first person indeterminacy > will have > as domain, by definition of first person, all the UD computation where my > virtual brain > use the relevant (for my consciousness) part of the oracle. > > A machine can only access to finite parts of an oracle, in course of a > computation > requiring oracle, and so everything is fine. That's how I imagine COMP instantiates the relation between the physical world and consciousness; that the physical world acts like the oracle and provides essential interactions with consciousness as a computational process. Of course that doesn't require that the physical world be an oracle - it may be computable too. Brent > > Of course, if we need the whole oracular sequence, in one step, then comp > would be just > false, and the brain need an infinite interface. > > The UD dovetails really on all programs, with all possible input, even > infinite non > computable one. > > Bruno > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. 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