On 31 Aug 2012, at 15:24, William R. Buckley wrote:
Roger and Bruno:
No part of the DNA molecule controls life. DNA is simply a
description, a
representation of information, a piece of paper upon which letters are
written.
It is the letter order that controls life. Nothing more.
No problem with this. You might read my paper "Amoeba, Planaria and
dreaming machines(*)" which explains the math of self-reproduction,
and self-regeneration and thus embrogenesis. (and also of dreaming,
like Bateson, I think biology and psychology are different
instantiation of the same self-referential phenomenon.
I think all this is coherent with your views as exposed here and in
your paper.
You asked me to explain Kleene's theorem. I will do that asap, but it
is hard to explain technics on a mailing list. I will try to say two
words on it someday, though.
Bruno
(*) Marchal B., 1992, Amoeba, Planaria, and Dreaming Machines, in
Bourgine & Varela (Eds), Artificial Life, towards a practice of
autonomous systems, ECAL 91, MIT press.
wrb
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com
] On Behalf Of Roger Clough
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 2:44 AM
To: everything-list
Subject: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit
intelligence
Hi Bruno Marchal
Sorry for the continual objections, but I'm just trying
to point out to you a hole in your thinking large enough to drive
a bus through. However, you keep ignoring my objections,
only intended to be constructive, which is rude. So....
What parts or part of a DNA molecule controls life ?
The code is just a bunch of letters, same problem as
with the computer.
Letters can't think. A thinker is needed.
To repeat, code by itself can't control anything.
The code is no different than a map without a reader.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
8/31/2012
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-08-31, 05:28:13
Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit
intelligence
William,
On 30 Aug 2012, at 22:27, William R. Buckley wrote:
Bruno:
I rather take issue with the notion that the living cell is not
controlled by the genome. As biosemioticians (like Marcello
Barbieri) teach us, there
are a number of codes used in biological context, and each has a
governing or controlling function within the corresponding context.
The genome
is clearly at the top of this hierarchy, with Natural Selection and
mutational variation being higher-level controls on genome.
Readability I think is well understood in terms of interactions
between classes of molecules � ATP generation for one is rather
well understood
these days.
Programmers (well experienced professionals) are especially
sensitive to context issues.
I agree with all this. I guess you know that. If you think I said
anything incoherent with this, please quote me.
Bruno
wrb
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com
] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:12 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit
intelligence
On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley
wrote:
Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware
form � i.e. DNA).
It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I
can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and
calendars.
To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of
unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a
ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything?
Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition
and multiplication, ...
Sense is irreducible.
From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too.
No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has
the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute
that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive.
This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical
laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does
not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I
might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism,
I find that suspicious, to be frank.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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