Hi Craig Weinberg I'm not talking about subjectivity in everyday terms, but rather in logical terms.
Cs = subject + object Where's the subject ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-04, 08:28:48 Subject: Re: Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal ? In 1) you left out the someone to be conscious. Consciousness needs a subject. In 2) you left out the our.? Consciousness needs a subject. Consciousness needs a subjective point of view but if you think of how we experience being deeply engrossed in a movie or book, or how we 'lose ourselves' in Flow states, it seems that the necessity of a subject in the human sense is an open question - although the existence of human subjectivity certainly suggests that such a subject is inherently possible through consciousness. I remember having dreams in which I was not present, but rather just aware of events and people as they were interacting. Not even a voyeur, but no sense of there being anything other than the people and their activities. Maybe dream consciousness doesn't qualify as consciousness, but that's a separate semantic issue. It could also be the case that such dreams and self-transcendence are only possible as an a posteriori imagination which arises from a fully formed human self...hard to know. Craig ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-03, 11:06:47 Subject: Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect On 03 Sep 2012, at 13:48, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb ? I don't hold to Popper's criterion. There's got to be a lot of things that are not falsifiable. For example, you drop an apple and gravity pulls it down. ? Falsifiable means "can be falsified". here the gravity can be falsfied: "you drop the apple and gravity pulls it up". Hi Bruno Marchal ? IMHO and for what it's worth, if you don't at least give a rough definition of consciousness, you might leave out something some of us consider essential, such as a subject: ? Cs = subject + object ? If you don't include the subject, then: ? ? Cs = object ? ? which makes it a noun. Persponally I believe that it's a dipole. I have no definition of consciousness. With comp I can show why there are none. But this does not prevent us to reason on it, once we can agree on some principles about it.? To get the consequences of comp, about consciousness, you need only to agree with this: 1) that you are conscious (or that the humans ?re conscious) 2) that our consciousness is invariant for digital functional change made at *some* description level of the brain or body or local environment or even some physical universe. All the rest follows from arithmetic and Church thesis if you agree on 1) and 2).? 3) It's also probably why taxing the rich ultimnately ?oesn''t work, it lowers everybody's income to fit the curve.? A nd why trickle down doesn't work. I do agree with this. The leftist idea of distributing richness cannot work for many reasons. But richness must be based on facts, and not on propaganda. Today we are living a perversion of capitalism, because too much investment are money stealing in disguise. The whole oil, and military industries, jail systems, and pharmaceutical industries are build on sands. It will crumbled down, and the sooner the better. But it will take time as the most of the middle class and banks are hostage (not always knowingly) of professional liars. Hi Richard Ruquist ? There is no god in comp. Here I disagree. If you are OK to semi-axiomatically define God by? 1) what is responsible for our existence 2) so big as to be beyond nameability Then there is a God in comp. Of course if you define God by "white giant with a beard, and sitting on a cloud", then you are very plausibly right. A little more on this in my reply to Richard. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. 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