Hi Bruno Marchal
1) Mind is nonphysical, the nopnphysical by definition
is not extended.
2) The All in Platonia is the end-all and be-all of everything,
being to my mind Universal Intelligence, including human or computers.
So not just persons. All of existence swims in the All. Living and dead.
It is the why the what the when* and the how.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
*Presumably the All created the physical world so that physical
time could exist. The subjective view of physical time is a
minimal definition of consciousness.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
3) The brain was constructed to ciommunicate with Mind like
a cell phone. The brain cannot itself do anythig, the mind
does all because it is Platonia, intelligence itself.
4) As to doubt and subjective time, yes, but no to/fro
objective time. Subjective time would be comparable
to the perception of some event in physical time.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/8/2012
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-08, 05:01:02
Subject: Re: Brains and time, subjectivity vs objectivity
On 07 Sep 2012, at 16:06, Roger Clough wrote:
Theres is some duplication in the propositions below which I have not bothered
to clear up, sorry.
1) Mind, being inextended, is "outside" of the brain, which is extended.
Mind (shared and the general, Platonia) is the subjective realm.
Brain (personal, private, the particular, materialistic) is in the
objective realm.
Mind does not even belong to the category of things capable of being extended
or not extended.
2) So Mind is beyond spacetime (Platonic) , but each brain is in spacetime
(materialistic), and only brains can access the Platonic*.
Only persons, using brains.
3) Brains are in time, as are all materialistic things, including computers.
Mind is timeless*.
OK.
4) Objective time is in spacetime, so can be measured.
OK. Note that "objective" = "capable of being doubted", or "capable of being an
illusion or a dream".
5) Subjective time is outside of spacetime, so only sensible by the brain.
By the person. My brain does no more thinking than my stomach do tasting. The
brain is just a local tool.
* So I think of our brains as racing through Mind in an auto
while looking at the passing landscape of Mind.
Except that eventually, the brain is only a construct of the mind too. The
persons are in Platonia.
Bruno
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/7/2012
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Craig Weinberg
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-06, 15:25:14
Subject: Re: Sane2004 Step One
On Thursday, September 6, 2012 2:02:02 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 05 Sep 2012, at 17:27, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 10:50:02 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 05 Sep 2012, at 03:48, Craig Weinberg wrote:
Taking another look at Sane2004. This isn't so much as a challenge to Bruno,
just sharing my notes of why I disagree. Not sure how far I will get this time,
but here are my objections to the first step and the stipulated assumptions of
comp. I understand that the point is to accept the given definition of comp,
and in that respect, I have no reason to doubt that Bruno has accomplished what
he sets out to as far as making a good theory within comp, and if he has not, I
wouldn't be qualified to comment on it anyhow. From my perspective however,
this is all beside the point, since the only point that matters is the actual
truth of what consciousness actually is, and what is it's actual relation to
physics and information. Given the fragile and precious nature of our own
survival, I think that implications for teleportation and AI
simulation/personhood which are derived from pure theory rather than thorough
consideration of realism would be reckless to say the least.
Step one talks about teleportation in terms of being reconstructed with ambient
organic materials. If comp were true though, no organic materials or
reconstructions would be necessary. The scanning into a universal machine would
be sufficient.
That is step 6.
I haven't even gotten to step 2 yet. I'm reading "In the figure the teleported
individual is represented by a black box. Its annihilation is
represented by a white box appearing at the left of the arrow" from 1.
Taking this to the China Brain level, the universal machine could be a trillion
people with notebooks, pencils, paper, and erasers, talking to each other over
cell phones. This activity would have to collectively result in the teleported
person now being conjured as if by incantation as a consequence of...what? The
writing and erasing on paper? The calling and speaking on cell phones? Where
does the experience of the now disembodied person come in?
As you illustrate here, plausibly not on the physical means used by the brain.
Step 8 shows that indeed the physical has nothing to do with consciousness,
except as a content of consciousness. Keeping comp here, we associate
consciousness with the logical abstract computations.
So the person's consciousness arises spontaneously through the overall
effort-ness behind the writing, erasing, and calling, or does it gradually
constellate from lesser fragments of disconnected effort-ness?
Consciousness does not arise. It is not in space, nor in time. Its local
content, obtained by differentiation, internally can refer to time and space,
but that's particular content of an atemporal consciousness. I would say (no
need of this in UDA).
If you exclude space and time, what kind of locality do you refer to? In my
example, a quintillion people call each other on the phone and write down
numbers that they get from each other and perform arithmetic functions on them
(which in turn may inform them on how to process subsequent arithmetic
instructions, etc). Ok. So where does the interpretation of these trillion
events per second come in? What knows what all of the computations add up to
be? At what point does the 'local content' begin to itch and turn blue? Even if
it could, why should it do such a thing?
Step one talks about annihilation as well, but it is not clear what role this
actually plays in the process, except to make it seem more like teleportation
and less like what it actually would be, which is duplication. If I scan an
original document and email the scan, I have sent a duplicate, not teleported
the original.
Right. Classical teleportation = duplication + annihilation of the original.
That's step 5, precisely.
You understand the reasoning very well, but we know that the problem for you is
in the assumption.
Yes, the assumption seems to presume physicality to disprove physicality
At some place, yes. In a reductio ad absurdum.
and presume consciousness to explain consciousness.
Yes. Like we presume (at some metalevel) anything we want to explain (from some
other realm). It is not a lott, but science works that way. We don't know the
public truth. We can only make clear our hypothesis and reason, and propose
tests.
Why not just recognize it formally and say that consciousness doesn't need any
explanation other than the experience of "this" and "that".
Computation seems to have nothing to do with either one of them in comp other
than the fact of the plasticity and aloofness of comp can be seen as a sign
that it is neither mind nor matter. It still doesn't answer the question of why
have appearances of mind or matter at all?
Comp is used to formulate the problem in math. Then we can see the general
shape of the solution, which is a reduction of physics into arithmetic, with
the advantage that we get a clear explanation of the difference of qualia and
quanta. And we can test the quanta.
I'm ok with reducing physics to math or math to physics, but neither have any
link back to experience.
If there is a reason, then that reason is the nature of the cosmos, not the
filing and organizing system that indexes it's activities.
I have problems with all three of the comp assumptions:
yes, doctor: This is really the sleight of hand that props up the entire
thought experiment. If you agree that you are nothing but your brain function
and that your brain function can be replaced by the functioning of non-brain
devices, then you have already agreed that human individuality is a universal
commodity.
Why? A program or piece of information is not nothing. It asks works, can be
paid for, can be precious and rare, etc.
It can't ask for anything by itself though.
Proof.
We can't coerce data into keeping secrets. All forms of secrecy require some
kind of social control of information. Data will always talk to strangers. (see
my post today:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/everything-list/L9LbbtQAN9U)
We are the ones to whom the significance relates.
Actually God told me yesterday that we are wrong on this. Only the jumping
spider can do that.
Jumping spiders and God are us too.
Information is nothing but an experience that can be remembered and transmitted
to other experiencers through formation.
Church thesis: Views computation in isolation, irrespective of resources,
supervenience on object-formed computing elements, etc. This is a theoretical
theory of computation, completely divorced from realism from the start. What is
it that does the computing? How and why does data enter or exit a computation?
It is a discovery by mathematicians.
And it is a valid discovery in the context of mathematical theory, but it
doesn't translate to the realism of subjectivity and physics.
Physics, or not physics are not among the hypothesis. More in the questioning.
It assumes weightless computation that generates weight (for not particular
reason).
We search the reason. You say "for no particular reason" without providing a
reason.
The realism of physical weight in the universe is what I am saying is one of
the things that is not derived from pure computation. There seems to be no
anchoring in mass (despite info-theoretic confusions about entropy). To comp,
it makes no difference whether a program operates on a galactic scale or
microscopic scale - the code is weightless. That is not our experience of
galaxies and atoms though.
Arithmetical Realism: The idea that truth values are self justifying
independently of subjectivity or physics is literally a shot in the dark. Like
yes, doctor, this is really swallowing the cow whole from the beginning and
saying that the internal consistency of arithmetic constitutes universal
supremacy without any real indication of that. Wouldn't computers tend to be
self-correcting by virtue of the pull toward arithmetic truth within each logic
circuit? Where do errors come from?
They come from the inadequacy between belief and truth. Incompleteness makes
this unavoidable at the root, and that is why the logic of Bp & p is different
from the logic of Bp, despite G* proves Bp -> p. G does not prove it, so
correct machine already knows that they might be incorrect "soon enough".
Your last paragraph confirms you are still thinking of machines and numbers in
a pre-Godelian or pre-L?ian way, I think.
I admit that I have only a wisp of understanding about modal logic and
G?elian-L?ianian ideas, but I feel like even this surface understanding is
enough to tell me that it is ultimately a red herring.
This is self-defeating.
Why, do you feel yourself to be defeated ;) ?
These concepts seem to just be about self-reference - maps of maps with no
territory. Great for simulating some aspects of thought, because indeed,
thinking has to do with copying copies and intellectual grammar, but feeling
doesn't.
The machine knows that, already. Feeling and first person notion have no 3p
representation at all. For logical reason, explainable with the math above.
I agree. Why does 1p machine theory propose the existence of feeling though?
These are ways of mentioning how ideas are mentioned. In reality, this sentence
does not refer to itself. There are only characters, or pixels, or optical
phenomena here. The significance does not arise from the same level in which it
is transmitted. This is the Chinese Room. Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
This has already been commented. You confuse the 3p self-reference and the 1p
self-reference. I think.
I don't think that I do (nor does Searle or Korzybski, Magritte...)
Craig
Bruno
Craig
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/2HWcjxET0xMJ.
To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/uJKVMsNocZwJ.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
