OK, to be honest I don't know much about the history of mathematics. I was coming more from the angle that imaginary/complex numbers found application in electromagnetics well after they were introduced in mathematics.
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:41 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > On 16 Oct 2012, at 17:37, Terren Suydam wrote: > >> Hi Russell, >> >> I think if autopoeisis has failed to achieve some practical measure, >> it is a reflection of how under-developed our collective toolbox is >> for working with complexity and holistic systems in general. Imaginary >> numbers are a good example of an idea whose practical measure didn't >> emerge until well after its conception. > > > I am not sure about that. Complex numbers (and imaginary root of negative > numbers) were used already to solve cubic equation. Of course the imaginary > last solution was rejected, but they were accepted as used in the search of > the real solutions. then Gauss used them a lot, and eventually pave the way > to the general acceptance. The complex numbers did impose themselves in the > practice of math, before gaining acceptance in the theory, I would say. > > Bruno > > > > >> >> Thanks for the link to Barry McMullin... interesting stuff. >> >> Terren >> >> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au> >> wrote: >>> >>> Whilst I agree with Terren that autopoesis is an important part of >>> what it is to be alive, it is not a very practical thing to measure. I >>> wouldn't know if my artificial life simulations were autopoetic or >>> not, except where the concept has been explicitly designed in (eg see >>> Barry McMullin's aritificial chemistry work). >>> >>> Actually, its a refreshing change to have some (a-)life topics being >>> discussed on this list. >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 11:45:47AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Terren Suydam >>>> >>>> You needn't agree with me. I respect that. >>>> >>>> It wasn't really a thought process, I >>>> just couldn't find anything to hold on to, >>>> something that works, and I am a pragmatist. >>>> Hence my use of the term "mind-boggling". >>>> >>>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net >>>> 10/15/2012 >>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >>>> From: Terren Suydam >>>> Receiver: everything-list >>>> Time: 2012-10-15, 11:23:43 >>>> Subject: Re: Re: autopoesis >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Roger, >>>> >>>> I'm interested in the thought process that led you to reject >>>> autopoeisis. I was intrigued by your recent post about life that >>>> defined it as the process of creation, rather than the object of it. >>>> >>>> Personally I think autopoeisis is an important concept, one of the >>>> best yet put forward towards the goal of defining life. I think there >>>> is a lot of potential in the idea in terms of applying it beyond the >>>> biological domain. As it only deals with relations among a network of >>>> processes, it does not assume the physical. >>>> >>>> At the very least is is indispensable as a framework for understanding >>>> autonomy. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Terren >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy >>>>> >>>>> I agree. >>>>> >>>>> I was wrong about autopoesis. It is >>>>> a mind-boggling definition of life, >>>>> maybe not even that. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net >>>>> 10/15/2012 >>>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >>>>> From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy >>>>> Receiver: everything-list >>>>> Time: 2012-10-14, 09:26:19 >>>>> Subject: Re: autopoesis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Roger, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Roger Clough wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Autopoesis is a useful definition for life. >>>>> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoiesis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Autopoiesis (from Greek a?to- (auto-), meaning "self", and p???s?? >>>>> (poiesis), meaning "creation, production") literally means "self-creation" >>>>> and expresses a fundamental dialectic among structure, mechanism and >>>>> function. The term was introduced in 1972 by Chilean biologists Humberto >>>>> Maturana and Francisco Varela: >>>>> >>>>> An autopoietic machine is a machine organized (defined as a unity) as a >>>>> network of processes of production (transformation and destruction) of >>>>> components >>>>> which: >>>>> >>>>> (i) through their interactions and transformations continuously >>>>> regenerate and realize the network of processes (relations) that produced >>>>> them; and >>>>> >>>>> (ii) constitute it (the machine) as a concrete unity in space in which >>>>> they (the components) exist by specifying the topological domain of its >>>>> realization as such a network.[1] >>>>> >>>>> [...] the space defined by an autopoietic system is self-contained and >>>>> cannot be described by using dimensions that define another space. >>>>> When we refer to our interactions with a concrete autopoietic system, >>>>> however, we project this system on the space of our manipulations and >>>>> make a >>>>> description of this projection.[2] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This seems to me more a description for machines/hallucinations that >>>>> lack flexibility; such as how media, politics, and market are framed in >>>>> public discourse. Like Luhmann said "they tend to be operationally >>>>> closed". >>>>> >>>>> The statement? above "continuously regenerate and realize the network >>>>> of processes (relations) that produced them" stands counter to >>>>> "transformations" which would indeed change "(ii) constitute it (the >>>>> machine) as a concrete unity in space in which they (the components) exist >>>>> by specifying the topological domain of its realization as such a >>>>> network.[1]", specifically the "concreteness" of the unity and the >>>>> discreetness of its domain is undermined by "transformation". >>>>> >>>>> The original Greek definition, does ring a bell for creative processes >>>>> and dreaming however, but in an "operationally less bounded" sense. >>>>> >>>>> m >>>>> ? >>>>> >>>>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net >>>>> 10/14/2012 >>>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) >>> Principal, High Performance Coders >>> Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au >>> University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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