Hi Russell Standish Bernard cells are mechanical, not caused by a self as agent but by laws of physics. They may be self-organizing, but there's no self to organize things.
Photosynthesis is a life process, not mechanical because it does things no computer program can do, namely turn light into energy, and CO2 in O2. This requires intelligence, which can't be programmed, since it must be free choice, even if just a wee bit. Choice is needed because like Maxwell's Demon, it goes against entropy. Self-organization has neither a self nor intelligence, since it is purely mechanical. Only life has intelligence and self. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/19/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Russell Standish Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-18, 17:45:39 Subject: Re: Re: Why self-organization programs cannot be alive On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 01:56:14PM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Russell Standish > > I apologize for using two different concepts of > creation of structure from randomness. Its good to clarify these thoughts. Great! > > There are two types of creation of structure: > by life, where there is an agent or self to create things, > and by a computer program, where creation is mechanical. > Not just a computer program. Physical systems can self-organise in purely mechanical ways too - eg Per Bak's sandpile, or Benard cells. > Self-organization is purely mechanical and does not require > nor does it have a self. It just uses a computer program > written elsewhere. But photosynthesis is by a living cell > entity. The organization of light into cell structure is > not self-organization, which is purely mechanical. > I wouldn't be so sure that photosynthesis isn't a purely mechanical process in your classification. Certainly, it is about as agent-like as some computer programs. > > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net > 10/18/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Russell Standish > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-10-17, 17:39:38 > Subject: Re: Why self-organization programs cannot be alive > > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 06:54:31AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: > > Hi Russell Standish > > > > Creating structure out of a random environment > > requires intelligence, the ability to make choices > > on one's own. Self-organization does not have > > that capacity, it merely follows a computer program. > > So self-organization programs cannot be alive, > > having no intelligence and no free will. In short, > > they have no self. Instead, they are slaved to a computer > > programmer. > > > > This is confusing. How do you explain how self-organisation creates > structure from initially disordered states? > > In the first sentence, you claim this requires intelligence. In the > second sentence, you claim self-organisation is not. > > This is a contradiction. > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Principal, High Performance Coders > Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
