On Nov 8, 2012, at 9:44 AM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>>> After the duplication all the John Clark realise that they are
in only one city,
>>> And that is exactly what John Clark predicted would happen.
>> And John Clark is correct on this.
> But that was not yet the question asked, which concerns the
experience that you (in Helsinki) will lived in the future.
But it is still not clear who "you" refers to and that is why
pronouns should not be used. If "you" refers to the Helsinki man
then "you" will experience no city at all because according to Bruno
Marchal's thought experiment the Helsinki man is destroyed.
This contradicts the time you agreed that one can survive via
duplication.
It also contradicts when you agreed that you associate yourself with a
stream of thoughts.
You stick to backward facing views of what has already happened when
Bruno repeadedly reminds you it is a question concerning the future.
Your above claims might be consistent if you had stuck to the idea
that all anyone is or ever will be is a single static thought stuck in
a single point in time, but you keep going back and forth on this.
You can't have it both ways, so which is it?
Jason
If the question is who "you" will turn into the answer is the Moscow
man AND the Washington man and there is no reason to expect a single
answer because YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED and when something has been
duplicated the result is there are two things not one. All the
confusion stems from the fact that Bruno Marchal blithely says that
something has been duplicated but no effort is made to stop and
think what that actually means.
>> John Clark correctly predicted that the Moscow man would see
Moscow and the Washington man would see Moscow.
>But John Clark in helsinki is not asked what will see both men, but
which men he will feel to be.
He? Whether the Helsinki man feels like he is the Moscow man and
only the Moscow man or the Washington man and only the Washington
man depends on one thing and one thing only, whether he's seen
Moscow or Washington. In this case the Helsinki man has seen both so
if Bruno Marchal were the Helsinki man then Bruno Marchal would feel
to be in Washington only and Bruno Marchal would feel to be in
Moscow only BECAUSE BRUNO MARCHAL HAS BEEN DUPLICATED.
>> before either saw either city John Clark does not even understand
what is meant by "which one".
>This means that he lacks the cognitive ability to imagine what both
the M-man and the W-man will feel.
But there is no M-man or W-man until they see Moscow and Washington,
it's what defines them, until then there is only the Helsinki man so
it makes no sense to ask questions about "which man". The Helsinki
man turns into the Washington man and the Helsinki man turns into
the Moscow man and all of them feel like they are exactly the same
person they were before and all of them feel like they are in one
and only one city. And if destroyed the Helsinki man turns into
nothing, that is to say there is no longer anyone experiencing
Helsinki, and if he is not destroyed then the Helsinki man remains
the Helsinki man. When the word "which" is included in a question it
implies that there can only be one answer, but this is incorrect
because YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED.
John Clark correctly predicted what will happen to everyone as can
be verified by interviewing all the parties involved after the
proceedings have concluded. And if Bruno Marchal has destroyed the
Helsinki man John Clark should not be blamed if Bruno Marchal can't
interview him afterward; if you let the poor fellow live he will say
John Clark was correct about the Helsinki man too.
> "Which city" is asked to the Helsinki man
Which city will the Helsinki man feel to be in? Moscow and
Washington because THE HELSINKI MAN HAS BEEN DUPLICATED.
> which has already understand that after pushing the button and
localize himself he will see only one city
Exactly, but "he" is plural, he is not a singular pronoun because HE
HAS BEEN DUPLICATED, so obviously the answer can not be singular and
a list is required to answer the question. And obviously the answer
is Moscow only and Washington only BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN DUPLICATED.
Your claim to have discovered a new type of indeterminacy is just a
convoluted restatement of the fact that one is not equal to two.
> the question is about which one,
John Clark wishes Bruno Marchal would be more clear, but John Clark
surmises that the question must be about which city, it can't be
about which man because before the duplication and the observation
of different cities there was only one man; so the answer is Moscow
and Washington because YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED.
> you admit that there is only one 1p,
Only 1p per person, but at last count there were 7.05 billion 1p's
on this planet; and if YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED then "you" has
become 2 people not one.
> The prediction is on the experience itself, so a list of
experience (which is never experienced by any 1p, as you say
yourself) does not make sense.
If YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED and "you" ask about what "you" will
experience then a list is the only answer that does make sense.
> Nobody has pretend that comp is contradictory. Just that you
cannot predict which among W and M you will experience in the future
of the Helsinki experiment.
Prove that a correct prediction can't be made!! I repeat my
challenge, interview all the parties involved after the experiment
and show what John Clark failed to predict, find someone who
testifies he experienced something that John Clark did not predict.
Do that and you've won the argument.
> There is no contradiction here, only indeterminacy,
It's so indeterminate you don't know who doesn't know it, or even
what "it" is.
> you can ask the question to all the copies. Both will answer
something like W and not M, or M and not W.
Exactly precisely as predicted.
> A correct prediction would have been W or M.
No! If that "or" is the exclusive "or" then that would have been
quite obviously a INCORRECT prediction. If you don't believe John
Clark about this then just interview the parties after it's all over
and see for yourself. The correct prediction would have been both W
AND M.
John K Clark
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