[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
11/15/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-11-04, 07:17:08
Subject: Re: On uniqueness
On 03 Nov 2012, at 12:09, Roger Clough wrote:
> Hi Bruno Marchal
>
> Yes, and keep in mind that there may be more than
> one theory that gives the same results in the form of data.
This plays the key role. That all data structuring admit infinities of
theories, like each state of mind can be associate to infinities of
machines.
> So in this world, the truth must lie in the data, which is unique,
> and not the theory, which may not be unique.
The inner truth, yes. But the outer truth it is more complex, not to
say on the fringe of the inconceivable.
>
> In this world, data is king.
Hmm... It is a question of taste, but personally I would say that the
interpreter of the data is more fundamental. Data are usually very
contingent, and sometimes they can hide reality more than
enlightening. Many data can put shadows and distort the view, and they
can also be biased. Data are important, sure.
Bruno
>
>
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> 11/3/2012
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
>
>
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: Bruno Marchal
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2012-11-02, 13:34:22
> Subject: Re: Self-ascription and "Perfect Model Model"
>
>
> On 02 Nov 2012, at 10:42, Roger Clough wrote:
>
>> Hi Bruno,
>>
>> Could it not be that there is nothing especially sacred
>> about the natural numbers, that these are, as Hobbes
>> put it regarding words, "but counterfeit tokens" ?
>
> Numbers, with + and * laws, is mainly the same things than digital
> machines, and the laws making them working.
>
>
>
>
>> And the real controlling force which uses them is
>> information theory ? That is to say, intelligence.
>
> Here you are far too quick. I can make sense, because I have some
> favorable imagination. As I said, information theory is a tiny
part of
> computer science. It exploits the duality between immune/simple set,
> where the self-reference logic exploits the duality creative/
> productive set. The two dualities plays some r?e, but the creative/
> productive set duality (the theory of universal machine) is much
more
> rich. The mathematical notion of information still disallows meaning
> and person. It is more used for communication of signals,
treatment of
> noise, compression of data, etc.
> You will also have the problem between choosing classical
information
> or quantum information, and how to relate them, etc.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
>> 11/2/2012
>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
>>
>>
>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
>> From: Evgenii Rudnyi
>> Receiver: everything-list
>> Time: 2012-11-01, 06:09:50
>> Subject: Re: Self-ascription and "Perfect Model Model"
>>
>>
>> On 30.10.2012 16:25 Bruno Marchal said the following:
>>>
>>> On 30 Oct 2012, at 12:53, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
>>>
>>
>> ...
>>
>>>>
>>>> You talk for example about integers as a framework for
everything.
>>>> Fine. Yet, I would like to understand how mankind through it
>>>> development has invented integers. How comp would help to answer
>>>> this?
>>>
>>> Comp might not been able to answer that, in any better way than,
>>> say,
>>> evolution theory. Numbers are important in nature, as everything
is
>>> born from them, and to survive with bigger chance, the universal
>>> numbers, us in particular, have to be able to recognize them, and
>>> manipulate them accordingly. Comp is not a theory aimed at
>>> explaining
>>> everything directly. It is just, at the start, an hypothesis in
>>> philosophy of mind, and then it appears that it reduces the mind-
>>> body
>>> problem to an explanation of quanta and qualia from
>>> arithmetic/computer science.
>>>
>>> Its main value in the human science, is, imo, that he forces us to
>>> be
>>> more modest, and more aware that we know about nothing, if only
>>> because we have wrongly separate the human science (including
>>> theology, afterlife, metaphysics) and the exact sciences. Comp
>>> provides a way to reunite them. Comp can be seen as an abstract
>>> corpus callosum making a bridge between the formal and the
informal,
>>> before bridging mind and matter.
>>
>> Below there is a couple of quotes about German idealism. Please
>> replace
>> Absolute Spirit by Natural Numbers there. Then it may give one
>> possible
>> answer to my question.
>>
>> ?bsolute Spirit is the fundamental reality. But in order to create
>> the
>> world, the Absolute manifests itself, or goes out of itself in a
>> sense,
>> the Absolute forgets itself and empties itself into creation
>> (although
>> never really ceasing to be itself). Thus the world is created as a
>> ?alling away? from Spirit, as a ?elf-alienation? of Spirit,
although
>> the Fall is never anything but a play of Spirit itself.?
>>
>> ?aving ?allen? into the manifest and material world, Spirit begins
>> the
>> process of returning to itself, and this process of the return of
>> Spirit
>> to Spirit is simply development or evolution itself. The original
>> ?escent? (or involution) is a forgetting, a fall, a self-alienation
>> of
>> Spirit; and the reverse movement of ?scent? (or evolution) is thus
>> the
>> self-remembering and self-actualization of Spirit. And yet, the
>> Idealists emphasized, all of Spirit is fully present at each and
>> every
>> stage of evolution as the process of evolution itself. ?
>>
>> Evgenii
>> --
>> http://blog.rudnyi.ru/2012/10/evolution-and-german-idealism.html
>>
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>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
>
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