On 01 Nov 2012, at 11:09, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 30.10.2012 16:25 Bruno Marchal said the following:
On 30 Oct 2012, at 12:53, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
...
You talk for example about integers as a framework for everything.
Fine. Yet, I would like to understand how mankind through it
development has invented integers. How comp would help to answer
this?
Comp might not been able to answer that, in any better way than, say,
evolution theory. Numbers are important in nature, as everything is
born from them, and to survive with bigger chance, the universal
numbers, us in particular, have to be able to recognize them, and
manipulate them accordingly. Comp is not a theory aimed at explaining
everything directly. It is just, at the start, an hypothesis in
philosophy of mind, and then it appears that it reduces the mind-body
problem to an explanation of quanta and qualia from
arithmetic/computer science.
Its main value in the human science, is, imo, that he forces us to be
more modest, and more aware that we know about nothing, if only
because we have wrongly separate the human science (including
theology, afterlife, metaphysics) and the exact sciences. Comp
provides a way to reunite them. Comp can be seen as an abstract
corpus callosum making a bridge between the formal and the informal,
before bridging mind and matter.
Below there is a couple of quotes about German idealism. Please
replace Absolute Spirit by Natural Numbers there.
Here there is a little difficulty. With comp, the "absolut Spirit" (or
the one, or God, or the big thing without a name, etc...) can be the
Natural Numbers (I would add structured by + and *, as it is not just
"0, 1, 2, ...").
But then comp can prove that there is no way the creatures itself
could ever know that, nor even completely able to explain what that
could mean.
There is no paradox. There is only a remind that we cannot prove that
comp is true.
If ever we could prove comp, then we could give a name to God, and
then we fall ... again.
Then it may give one possible answer to my question.
“Absolute Spirit is the fundamental reality. But in order to create
the world, the Absolute manifests itself, or goes out of itself in a
sense, the Absolute forgets itself and empties itself into creation
(although never really ceasing to be itself). Thus the world is
created as a “falling away” from Spirit, as a “self-alienation” of
Spirit, although the Fall is never anything but a play of Spirit
itself.”
Yes. This remind me of my quoting of Aurobindo, which suits so well
something in both comp, and, swim has to say, the salvia divinorum
experience:
<<
What, you ask, was the beginning of it all?
And it is this ...
Existence that multiplied itself
For sheer delight of being
And plunged into numberless trillions of forms
So that it might
Find
Itself
Innumerably (Aurobindo)
>>
“Having “fallen” into the manifest and material world, Spirit begins
the process of returning to itself, and this process of the return
of Spirit to Spirit is simply development or evolution itself. The
original “descent” (or involution) is a forgetting, a fall, a self-
alienation of Spirit; and the reverse movement of “ascent” (or
evolution) is thus the self-remembering and self-actualization of
Spirit. And yet, the Idealists emphasized, all of Spirit is fully
present at each and every stage of evolution as the process of
evolution itself. ”
I can't agree more, Evgenii.
It is also very close to Plotinus' emanation/conversion, which has
influenced the Christians a lot, even if this has often taken the
shape of fairy tales (which obviously should never been taken
literally).
In Plotinus, and in comp we can say more: it is the process of
conversion of the Soul toward the Spirit, which literally create the
material reality. It is the indeterminateness of the border of the
universal mind, where God loss control, so to speak, which makes it
possible for the soul to start the conversion, and come back to the
source. That conception of matter is already in Aristotle, but
Plotinus gives the Platonist correction which makes it consistent, and
even necessary I would say, with the theology, including physics, of
the universal machines.
Each individual universal machines is a window for the arithmetical
truth to discover (partially) itself, but also losing itself, in
itself. This entails a double amnesia: God has to forget his identity
to explore itself, and the creatures have to forget the window and the
exploration (the body and the environment) to remember who they are.
Likewise with salvia: you forget who you are here to remind who you
are there, and vice versa, apparently from many reports, although you
can also just disconnect, instead of forgetting (which is handy when
the phone rings).
Indeed, the same with comp once you accept the greek definition of
knowledge and dream---roughly speaking: true belief (knowledge) and
consistent belief (dream).
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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