On 12 Jan 2013, at 12:30, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 8:35 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 10 Jan 2013, at 23:05, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:03, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote:
Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?
I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of
inconsistency (that is: Gödel's second incompleteness theorem).
Doesn't the second incompleteness theorem imply that all knowable
truths are local and that absolute truth is unrecognisable?
Why?
I don't think so. Gödel's incompleteness relies on the absoluteness
of the elementary arithmetical truth. It only entails that all
machine cannot know the whole thing, and not even give it a name.
"Local" was a poor choice of words. A better term for what I meant
would be "subjective to the machine". Taking the point of view of
the machine: if it can't know certain truths about itself, how can
it know any absolute truth?
By proving it. (and praying for betting correct, not having confuse
a + with a *, etc.)
But proving only really works from outside the system. If we are a
machine inside the system, how can we be sure that we are not making
a systematic mistake that we are not able to recognise.
We are not. Proof does not lead to certainty, nor to knowledge. That
is why (Bp & p) obeys a different logic than Bp, even for correct
machine on p sigma_1. In that case we do have Bp <-> p, but the
machine cannot prove that. That is why I said "by proving *and*
praying".
Bruno
I assume that you are willing to agree that "17 is prime" is an
example of an "absolute truth".
Yes.
Apart from algebra, since rejecting it would invalidate Godel's
theorem?
Gödel's theorem is a theorem in elementary arithmetic.
It is both a meta-theorem *on* a formal arithmetic, and a theorem
*in* that formal arithmetic.
I might miss your question perhaps. Please say so if it is the case.
Argh, sorry. Of course.
So if we are a machine inside the system, imagine there's something
about us we can't know that makes use commit fundamental mistakes.
Is it possible that arithmetics only makes sense to us because of
that flaw?
Bruno
This can be made more precise in "model theory", or "set theory"
where we can define "absolute" and "relative".
That makes sense with my empirical understanding of realty: there
are things that I find beautiful and others find ugly. Hate groups
feel that they just have a correct understanding of reality, and
so on.
I am OK with this, except on elementary arithmetic. You need this
just to define "formalism", "machine", etc. But even such kind of
truth cannot be communicate as such, unless we first agree on some
axioms, and on what axioms are.
Actually it comes from the fact that Bf (inconsistency) gives an
evolutionary advantage. Like the true Dt, Bf can be used to prove
correct arithmetical propositions, to shorten the proofs of non
trivial propositions, etc. I am able to conceive, some day, that
all axioms of infinity are of this type (but this is a strong
statement).
So basically the hate, the falsehood and the ugliness comes from
their local evolutionary advantage. A bit like robbing a bank can
be justified, when the goal is to make money locally and quickly.
A bit like when the "first animal" decided to feed on a vegetal,
which is a form of molecules stealing, at some level. Then other
animals steal the molecules of those vegetarians, and so on. This
has generated the evolutionary heuristic: to eat or to be eaten,
and sometimes that hurts.
Ok - at the evolutionary level of abstraction.
Well, OK. It still hurts, and the hurting feeling seems to be
something absolute. We cannot doubt a feeling of headache, even if
we can doubt the primary existence of the head.
Bruno
In the main line ...
Bruno
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Roger Clough
<rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:
According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes
from the One
(ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or
beauty, I
sense God's presence.
[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
1/9/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-
l...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-
l...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
