The fact that a machine can act in a discriminatory based upon some signal (sign, information) input is demonstration
of value judgment. Just as there is no *in* in a machine, so to there is no *in* in a biological organism; they both, machine and organism, are forms that treat other forms in certain proscribed ways. You cannot demonstrate otherwise. wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 10:37 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:53:31 AM UTC-5, Alberto G.Corona wrote: Let´s say that what we call "information" is an extended form of sensory input. What makes this input "information" is the usability of this input for reducing the internal entropy of the receiver or increase the internal order. The receiver can be a machine, a cell, a person or a society for example. If the input do not produce this effect in the receiver, then that input is not information. The increase of internal order of the receiver is a symptom of an experience of being informed but they are not the same thing. It's not really even relevant in most cases. I would not call it an extended form of sensory input, but a reduction of sensory experience. Input is not a physical reality, it is a conceptual label. Consider Blindsight: I hold up two fingers and ask how many fingers? "I don't know.' Guess 'two'. This example tells us about information without tying it to decreased entropy. My two fingers are a form. I am putting them into that form, so the process of my presenting my fingers is a formation of a sign. The sign is not information at this point. It means something different to an ant or a frog than it does to a person looking at it. If you can't see, there is no formation there at all unless you can collide with my fingers. When the patient responds that they don't know how many fingers, it is because they personally have no experience of seeing it. They are not being informed personally by the form of my fingers in front of their face because they have blindsight. When they guess correctly, they still have not been informed. Only we know that the information is correct. At this point you could say that there is some decrease in information entropy of the receiver as far as we are concerned, but in fact, for the receiver themselves, they have not increased any internal order. A machine has blindsight about everything. They can be queried and produce valid responses to inform us, but they are never informed themselves. There is no 'in' in a machine, it is an organization of forms which treat other forms in a proscribed way. Forms are copied, transformed, and presented in a context that it has no experience of. My computer sees nothing that I see on this screen. It reads nothing that I type here. It doesn't know what the Everything List is - not even Google knows what it is - only that the string of characters in the name is to be associated with an ip address. Craig 2013/3/2 William R. Buckley <bill.b...@gmail.com <javascript:> > >Thinking about how information content of a message Big mistake. Information is never contained with but exactly one exception, an envelope. I made this point with Jesper Hoffmeyer regarding a statement in his book Biosemiotics, that information is represented but not contained in that representation. That marks of chalk upon slate may be taken to represent information at a meta level above the reality of streaks of a deformed amorphous solid has nothing to do with the information represented by that deformation, nor the increase of entropy associated with the greater disorder obtained from that deformation; these are but three of the *informations* to be found upon review of those streaks. Entropy is how nature sees information (not yet an established fact but I think the tea leaves read clear enough) but that has (presumably) nothing to do with how intelligent individuals see information, or as von Uexküll called such phenomena, signs. Most definitely the information is not to be found within the material of its expression, its representation. Rather, the information is already to be found within the interpreter. That which is information is so by virtue of the acceptor of that information; else, it is noise. And, write the information on a piece of paper and seal the paper within an envelope and you may justifiably claim that the information is contained; else, you are deluding yourself. >has an inversely proportionate relationship with the >capacity of sender and receiver to synchronize with >each other. > ....<snip> wrb -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> . To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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