On Sunday, March 24, 2013 1:44:01 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 24 Mar 2013, at 12:53, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Sunday, March 24, 2013 7:13:27 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 21 Mar 2013, at 18:44, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, March 21, 2013 1:28:24 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 20 Mar 2013, at 19:16, Craig Weinberg wrote: >>> >>> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130320115111.htm >>> >>> "We are examining the activity in the cerebral cortex *as a whole*. The >>> brain is a non-stop, always-active system. When we perceive something, the >>> information does not end up in a specific *part* of our brain. Rather, >>> it is added to the brain's existing activity. If we measure the >>> electrochemical activity of the whole cortex, we find wave-like patterns. >>> This shows that brain activity is not local but rather that activity >>> constantly moves from one part of the brain to another." >>> >>> >>> >>> Please, don't confuse the very particular neuro-philosophy with the much >>> weaker assumption of computationalism. >>> Wave-like pattern are typically computable functions. >>> (I mentioned this when saying that I would say yes to a doctor only if >>> he copies my glial cells at the right chemical level). >>> >>> There are just no evidence for non computable activities acting in a >>> relevant way in the biological organism, or actually even in the physical >>> universe. >>> You could point on the the wave packet reduction, but it does not make >>> much sense by itself. >>> >> >> Right, I'm not arguing this as evidence of non-comp. Even if there was >> non-comp activity in the brain, nothing that we could use to detect it >> would be able to find anything since we would only know how to use an >> exrternal detection instrument computationally. Mainly I posted this to >> show the direction that the scientific evidence is leading us does not >> support any kind of narrow folk-neuroscience of point to point >> chain-reactions. >> >> >> >> Good. >> >> >> >> >>> >>> Not looking very charitable to the bottom-up, neuron machine view. >>> >>> >>> Ideas don't need charity but in this case it is totally charitable, >>> even with neurophilosophy, given that in your example, those waves still >>> seem neuron driven. >>> >> >> How do you know that it seem neuron driven rather than whole brain driven? >> >> >> In neurophilosophy, they are used to global complex and distributed brain >> activity, but still implemented in term of local computable rules obeyed by >> neurons. >> > > If you look at a city traffic pattern, you will see local computable rules > obeyed by cars, but that doesn't mean there aren't non-computable agendas > being pursued by the drivers. > > > Indeed. > > But that is what you get at the Turing universal threshold. If you look at > the computer's functioning, you will see local computable rules obeyed by > the gates, but that doesn't mean there aren't non-computable agendas being > pursued by genuine person supported by those computations. >
Absolutely, but does it mean that it has to be a genuine person? To me it makes sense that the natural development of persons may be restricted to experiences which are represented publicly in zoological terms. The zoological format is not the cause of the experience but it is the minimum vessel with the proper scale of sensitivity for that quality of experience to be supported. Trying to generate the same thing from the bottom up may not be feasible, because the zoological format arises organically, whereas an AI system skips zoology, biology, and chemistry entirely and assumes a universally low format. Consciousness does not seem to be compatible with low level unconscious origins to me. Looking at language, the rules of spelling and grammar do not drive the creation of new words. A word cannot be forced into common usage just because it is introduced into a culture. There is no rule in language which has a function of creating new words, nor could any rule like that possibly work. If you could control the behavior of language use from the bottom up however, you could simulate that such a rule would work, just by programming people to utter it with increasing frequency. This would satisfy any third person test for the effectiveness of the rule, but of course would be completely meaningless. > > > > >> >> >> >> >> What would it look like if the brain as a whole were driving the neurons? >> >> >> Either it would be like saying that a high level program can have a >> feedback on some of its low level implementations, which is not a problem >> at all, as this already exist, in both biology and computer science, or it >> would be like saying that a brain can break the physical laws, or the >> arithmetical laws and it would be like pseudo-philosophy. >> > > What about the relation between high level arithmetic laws - like the ones > which allow for 1p subjectivity in UM, LM, etc and the programs which > support them? > > > To eat or to be eaten relatively to the most probable universal neighbors. > The relations can be complicated. > Their being complicated is what I would expect from high level laws - but how is it that low level processes wind up being influenced by them? How does the law that says dumb code can begin to think for itself come to be followed by dumb code? > > > > > > Not between the high level program and the low level program, but between > the X-Level truths and laws and all local functions? > > > > Above the substitution level, only god knows, but you can bet and theorize > locally, and, below the substitution level, you get the full arithmetical > mess, the union on all sigma_i formula, well beyond the computable. It is > not easy, but there are mathematical lanterns, and deep symmetries, and > deep self-referential insight. > It is a reality that the universal machines cannot avoid. > > It is the advantage of comp, you can translate the problem in arithmetic, > but it is not necessarily a "simple", sigma_1, problem. > There is a no universal panacea capable of satisfying all universal > machines at once, nothing is easy. > You have to look inward, eventually. > I won't be able to understand that, but it seems to me that if exotic capabilities like 1p awareness can be made up of dumb programmatic elements, then the top-down influence of potential intelligence must be equally important as the bottom-up blind stacking of logical operators. It seems like you want it both ways - that the higher order arithmetic magic of UMs are both separate from the primitive machines of today, but the potential for magic is inherent and inevitable strictly from inferences of the lowest arithmetic truths. Craig > Bruno > > > > > > > Craig > > >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> Craig >> >> >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Craig >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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