On 12 Oct 2013, at 21:28, John Mikes wrote:
Bruno, I can't help it: I liked Richard's interjection. Arithmetics
(even in your fundamental vision - I suppose) needs 'human logic' to
propagate etc.,
Yes. Like galaxies needs human teacher in astronomy to propagate in
human children knowledge or beliefs.
no matter how the elements may be thought to pre-date humans. Does a
stone, or the 'root' of a plant, a microbe, or a cloud follow
(evolve? apply?) your math- equations? I mean: not in their
'existence', but AS MATH (observing numbers, i.e. arithmetix)?
Does a stone obey to the gravitation law before the humans appears?
Did you mean that (by UD) did humans got generated into logically
thinking creatures? Where in Nature would you detect (whole-sale)
arithmetics?
Nature is an emerging pattern from arithmetic seen from inside by
(relative) numbers, in case comp is correct.
(Meaning: beyond the 1, a pair, ~many etc. generalities? Prime
numbers??)
That would make us UNIQUE - not just a level in Nature. (Children of
God -
the Creator?)
No, because we are ourselves emergent pattern of the additive-
multiplicative number structure.
Bruno
JM
On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 12 Oct 2013, at 15:24, Richard Ruquist wrote:
Human intelligence seems to be required for comp to work.
?
We need only Löbian-Turing intelligence which exists as a
consequence of elementary arithmetic.
The theory is:
identity logic +
((K, x), y) = x
(((S, x), y), z) = ((x, z), (y, z))
Where do you see an assumption about humans?
Well, a best know but equivalent (with respecto the Everything goal)
theory is:
classical logic +
0 ≠ s(x)
s(x) = s(y) -> x = y
x+0 = x
x+s(y) = s(x+y)
x*0=0
x*s(y)=(x*y)+x
Again, where do you see an assumption about human.
Human are used in UDA, of course, to explain comp to humans, but the
result is that the theories above, although quite incomplete with
respect to the arithmetical truth, are complete for the ontology
needed to explain physics and consciousness.
We need only a good dreamer, and the discovery of the relative
universal numbers (in the sense of Post, Turing, Church, etc.)
provides an excellent candidate, especially with comp, of course.
So how did evolution happen before humans existed?
The UD generates the human before evolution, but their statistical
weight is probably not relevant. Eventually the UD has to emulate
some very long histories and the humans get a deeper and deeper past.
Bruno
On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 3:39 AM, freqflyer07281972 <thismindisbud...@gmail.com
> wrote:
Dear Russell,
Back in 2012, you made the following claims regarding my general
attack on Bruno's
"mathematical reductionism":
1) Self-awareness is a requirement for consciousness
2) We expect to find ourselves in an environment sufficiently rich
and
complex to support self-aware structures (by Anthropic Principle),
but
not more complex than necessary (Occams Razor). Sort of like
Einstein's principle "As simple as possible, and no simpler."
3) The simplest environment generating a given level of complexity is
one that has arisen as a result of evolution from a much simpler
initial state. This is the evolution in the multiverse observation,
that evolution is the only creative (or information generating)
process.
4) Evolutionary processes work with populations, so automatically,
you must have other self-aware entities in your world, and
consequently inter-subjectivity.
My question to you, as basic as it might seem, is... have you
changed your
mind about any of these presuppositions?
Yours forever in the multiverse,
Dan
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