I´m very interested in what you question. One of the wonders of life is how a living being select relevant information from the environment for their needs. I think that the aestetic sense is a heavy part of the activity of the mind at the unconscious level. Form recognition is computation intensive. It is also very puzzling for me how accurately people recognize intuitively order or disorder in agreement with what would be the real entropy calculated in physical terms.
It seems that the filtering of information that is not relevant and to deal with what is relevant has been one of the main evolutionary pressures. A recognized pattern (for example, a porcelain jar with all its details, can be assimilated to a macrostate in entropic terms. A broken porcelain jar reduced to dust makes it undistinguisable from other jars and also unusable for doing a work. For example to transport water. That is why life needs to use low entropic things that can be recognized as interesting patterns. 2013/12/4 Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> > > > On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 4:21:32 PM UTC-5, Alberto G.Corona wrote: >> >> >> >> >> 2013/12/4 Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com> >> >> >>> >>> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 12:00:39 PM UTC-5, spudb...@aol.comwrote: >>>> >>>> I read Caroll's article and wind up with more questions about his >>>> statement. First, what does he consider non-physical? Thoughts in our head, >>>> dreams. But those of the biochemical interaction fizzing about our >>>> neurology, as electrons. He never defines non physical, so what not just >>>> say that everything is matter, and when matter moves, its energy, and when >>>> its perforated with a pattern, that our neurochemistry recognizes, its >>>> information? >>>> >>> >>> This is where the card up the sleeve is. What's a "pattern" physically? >>> What is our neurochemistry doing "recognizing" something. >>> >>> Let's look at a complex system, like New York City. What constitutes its >>> "information"? Traffic entering and exiting the city limits? Architectural >>> spaces and their degrees of freedom over time? The assumptions of both >>> physics and mathematics are mutually defeating, and together, they obscure >>> any possibility of looking beyond the reflections of public form and >>> function to the reality of their private appreciation and participation. >>> >> >> Speaking with rigurously as far as i can, the information depends on >> the granularity of the states that you consider. If you are contemplating >> the Premier Leage along the history looking at the leage winners of each >> year, the information is that. If you zoom in to a particular year and see >> the classification, you have another level of information. if you proceed >> day by day, tean after team, player after player yo will have more and >> more detailed states. >> >> In Statistical Mechanics, the information is contemplated at the >> molecular level.. There are higuer levels: at the atomic, quark and >> superstring level, that is supossedly the ultimate level, where the units >> of distance energy etc are called Planck units. But in ordinary matter >> where the atoms are individual, not in the form of plasma the statistical >> mechanics level is well defined. that base level is called the microstate. >> >> But information in the usual sense is refered to states of macroscopical >> entities, like the speed of my car, or the height of a building, not the >> position and speed of the particles of the car or the building. the >> building can be hot or cold and the microstates can vary. but I don´t care. >> However the total information at the microstate level is constant. But the >> macrostate can loose information. a building can fall as a result of a >> eathquaque. in this process of loss of information the entropy grows. >> > > Even if you have the total information at every state, what does it really > tell someone who wants 'information about New York City?' > > Without smuggling in top level correlations, we can't answer even simple > questions like 'What's a nice place to eat?' or 'are New Yorkers rude?' > > To me, it is clearly the 'levels' which are more primordial and more > informative than the theoretic invariances across the levels. Without the > aesthetics, information is no different from entropy. > > >> >>> Or should we define electrons, photons and neutrinos as non physical? >>>> >>> >>> We should define matter and energy on a sliding scale in which >>> microcosmic and cosmological limits are characterized by a fusion of >>> private and public physics, whereas macrocosmic subjectivity provides the >>> orthogonality of maximum public-private divergence. The meaning of >>> 'physical' would become relativistic, as all presences private or public >>> would be physical in an absolute sense, but a representation of one >>> experience (like a football) within another (a human being's visualization) >>> would allow 'physical' to serve to differentiate the represented football >>> as non-physical relative to the presented football, but the represented >>> football would still be ontologically physical as a visual experience. >>> >>> Craig >>> >>> >>>> I don't get what his point is? How reductionist (which is philosophy >>>> not physics) does he want us all to get? This is what I suspect he is going >>>> for. To be the Dawkins of physics. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: freqflyer07281972 <thismind...@gmail.com> >>>> To: everything-list <everyth...@googlegroups.com> >>>> Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 9:17 pm >>>> Subject: Question for Bruno Regarding the question of whether >>>> information is physical. >>>> >>>> Hey everyone, >>>> >>>> Here is a question for Bruno (and anyone else who wants to chime in) -- >>>> >>>> I came across this >>>> post<http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/11/28/thanksgiving-8/>over >>>> at Sean Carroll's Preposterous Universe blog, wherein he seems to be >>>> claiming that the >>>> relationship between information, entropy, and physical processes is >>>> pretty well in the bag, i.e. it is well understood by physicists >>>> and it seems that the concept of information can be cashed out entirely >>>> in terms of physical processes. >>>> >>>> What does this do to your thought experiment and your Platonic >>>> orientation towards questions of information theory? >>>> >>>> How would you go about explaining the deep relationship between >>>> entropy, information, and the physical evolution of the universe? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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