On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:08 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On 12/10/2013 12:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 09 Dec 2013, at 23:28, meekerdb wrote: > > On 12/9/2013 12:06 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:57 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: > >> On 12/9/2013 12:44 AM, LizR wrote: >> >> On 9 December 2013 20:56, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: >> >>> On 12/8/2013 4:36 PM, LizR wrote: >>> >>> On 9 December 2013 07:41, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>> >>>>> >> Determinism is far from "well established". >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > It's a basic assumption in almost every scientific theory. >>>>> >>>> >>>> In the most important theory in physics, Quantum Mechanics, no such >>>> assumption is made, and despite a century of trying no experiment has ever >>>> been performed that even hinted such a deterministic assumption should be >>>> added in. >>>> >>> >>> I believe the two-slit experiment hints that QM is deterministic by >>> implying the existence of a multiverse. >>> >>> Wasn't it you, Liz, that pointed out this was circular. Everett >>> assumes a multiverse in order to make QM determinsitic. >>> >>> I did say something like that, didn't I? [insert embarrassed emoticon >> here]. >> >> I think I was saying that it was too strong to say that QM "follows the >> principle of determinism" (or something like that) because it appears to be >> indeterminate and only becomes deterministic thanks to Everett. However, >> the two-slit experiment does *suggest* the multiverse as a valid >> explanation, in that any other explanation requires other principles to be >> violated (causality, locality...) >> >> I think I was attempting to position myself between John and Jason - to >> say that determinism is reasonably well established, but only as a result >> of a long and winding process of experiment, conjecture and so on. >> >> >> >> But it isn't. As Roland Omnes says, quantum mechanics is a >> probabilistic theory so it predicts probabilities - what did you expect? >> Among apostles of Everett there's a lot of trashing of Copenhagen. But >> Bohr's idea was that the classical world, where things happened and results >> were recorded, was *logically* prior to the quantum mechanics. QM was a >> way of making predictions about what could done and observed. Today what >> might be termed neo-Copenhagen is advocated by Chris Fuchs and maybe Scott >> Aronson. I highly recommend Scott's book "Quantum Computing Since >> Democritus". It's kind of heavy going in the middle, but if you're just >> interested in the philosophical implications you can skip to the last >> chapters. Violation of Bell's inequality can be used to guarantee the >> randomness of numbers, http://arxiv.org/pdf/0911.3427v3.pdf, assuming >> only locality. >> >> >> > Bell's theorm proves that local hidden variables are impossible which > leaves only two remaining explanations that explain the EPR paradox: > > 1. Non-local, faster-than-light, relativity violating effects > > > That's non-local hidden variable - which is exactly what a parallel > universe is. > > > What is non local here? > > > A whole world is duplicated - including remote parts. > > Not quite, the superposition spreads, causally and locally. First when the positron and electron are sent to remote locations, and then it spreads from the positron and electron when they are themselves measured, locally causing multiplications of states to everything that interacts with everything that interacted with the particle. There is no instantaneous creation of two states for the scientists at Proxima Centarui when the electron is measured on Earth, they bifurcate into two states only when they measure their positron, or alternately, if they waited 4 years for the Earth scientist's radio transmission to reach them, then they would enter superposed states from the Earth scientists report. (This is an example of the superposition spreading at light or sub-light speeds throughout the environment.) Jason > > > > > > 2. Measurements have more than one outcome > > In light of Bell's theorem, either special relativity is false or > many-world's is true. > > > I agree with Jason. > > Bruno > > > > Jason > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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