Are we confusing the "real thing" with the Platonic?
On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:41 PM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:27 PM, Stephen Paul King < > stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > >> Hi LizR and Jason, >> >> Responding to both of you. I don't understand the claim of determinism >> is "random noise" is necessary for the computations. Turing machines >> require exact pre-specifiability. Adding noise oracles is cheating! >> >> > I think you misunderstand. Computers are deterministic, but they often > need randomness to implement things such as cryptography or monte-carlo > simulations, etc. Due to this need for true unpredictability, our > computers must harness environmental noise if they are to have any hope of > being unpredictable. This is because computers cannot generate > unpredictability on their own. > > Jason > > >> >> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:22 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On 28 December 2013 17:15, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:06 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Clearly programmes don't have to be deterministic. They could contain >>>>> a source of genuine randomness, in principle. >>>>> >>>> >>>> That source, if it is within the program, would necessarily be >>>> deterministic. If it is external to the program, then it is more properly >>>> treated as an input to the program rather than a part of the program >>>> itself. >>>> >>>> In practice, computers draw on sources of environmental noise such as >>>> delays between keystrokes, timing of the reception of network traffic, and >>>> delays in accessing data off of hard drives, etc. These steps are necessary >>>> precisely because programs cannot produce randomness on their own. >>>> >>>> I knew that - honest! :-) >>> >>> I was answering the question as posed. I believe that in practice all >>> real-world programmes are deterministic, and (more to the point) the UD is. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/sqWzozazMg0/unsubscribe >>> . >>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Kindest Regards, >> >> Stephen Paul King >> >> Senior Researcher >> >> Mobile: (864) 567-3099 >> >> stephe...@provensecure.com >> >> http://www.provensecure.us/ >> >> >> “This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of >> the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain >> information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and >> exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as >> attorney work product. 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