On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote:
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
There is still FPI going on in the "rogue" simulation - the one
where Glak emerges from an alternative-physics, as there are
infinite continuations from Glak's state(s) in the alternative
physics.
You cannot change the FPI, as it is the same for all machines. You
are introducing a special physical continuation, which a priori does
not make sense. Glak, in his own normal world obeys the same laws of
physics than us, with a very different histories and geographies and
biologies.
I'm asking you, for the moment, and in apparent contradiction with
the math, to suspend the AUDA entailment that there is a single
physics.
OK.
What I'm suggesting is that Glak's identity is constructed from
something more than its characterization as a "mere" Lobian machine.
That is right, unless he smokes something, or get a strike on the head
or something, and get highly amnesic.
There is a reason why I will suddenly never wake up to be Bruno
Marchal.
Yes, and it is the same as the reason why you will see a pen falling
on the grounds.
Even if we are both Lobian machines, there is a lot more that goes
through our consciousness,
OK.
in order to arrive at the unique subjective experience and identity
of Bruno or Terren, than mere Lobianity. I'm taking that further by
hypothesizing the example of Glak, whose subjective experience and
identity must be bound to a *particular* physics/biology,
A particular biology? No doubt.
A particular physics? This is what will lost his meaning. Of course,
after the UDA, we have to redefine physics, which is the measure (or
science trying to find that measure) on all (relative) computations,
which:
1) emulates my body (including my personal memory, my "identity")
below the substitution level
2) and winning the measure (= are the most probable).
Take an electron in some orbital. The orbital gives the map of those
winning computation (in case our level is given by the uncertainty
relation, to simplify).
in such a way that a being who self-identifies as Glak, with all of
Glak's memories etc, could not possibly manifest in "our" physics.
What would that mean. If comp is correct, Glak can in principle be
emulated in our neighborhood, although perhaps not in real time.
The sticking point of the AUDA for me has always been the identity
of us, as human beings, with the idealized machines being
interviewed. We are clearly Lobian, in some sense, but it also seems
clear to me that our consciousness, our subjective experience,
integrates its embodiment.
Yes. But all effective extension of PA is Löbian. AUDA applies to all
Löbian machines, and that is why they will have the same physics
(given by S4Grz1, or/and Z1*, or /and X1*).
Anything NOT derivable in those mathematics will be defined as
geographical. If Glak's electron are more heavy, it means that the
mass of the electron depends on contingent aspect of the physical
reality.
our identity is not physical, but historico-geographical. The physics
is only what makes such historico-geographical apperance quite stable
or relatively numerous. Physics is what multiply the comp histories;
That is why Everett saves comp from solipsism.
Our (apparent) bodies are part of our identities, and through
sensory interfaces shape our subjective experience... and as our
bodies are part of physics,
Part. Only part. the contingent part.
then Glak's body in an alternative physics is likewise a part of
Glak's identity,
Only what is above his substitution level, and the physics must be the
same as us, as, under the substitution level, he can only see what
result from the universal measure, which must exist by comp and the UD
argument.
and the measure of the most probable continuations for Glak, I
think, require that alternative body, which require an alternative
physics.
By UDA, it seems to me rather clear that you can only use an alternate
geography.
I'm wondering if there's room in the math for an accounting of
consciousness that goes beyond Lobian machines in such a way as to
allow for alternate physics.
Only if that alternate physics allows a non Turing emulable (at any
level) brain. If Glak's brain is Turing emulable, it will be
distributed in the UD*, like us, and if he look below its substitution
level, he will have to use the same universal statistics, but of
course relatively to its own comp state; which makes the difference of
identity, geography, etc.
Bruno
Terren
The reason I am still unsure of your answer here Bruno
It is a complex question.
is that I can imagine a scenario where Glak is implemented in an
alternative physics - that is to say, knows herself as Glak and has
memories of being Glak - but Glak is not able to be implemented in
"our" physics.
At which level? What does that mean?
For example, in the alternative physics world, Glak's psychology is
embodied in a completely different kind of biology, a biology that
is not compatible with our physics. Now by comp, Glak's mind can be
uploaded to a simulation running in our physics, but it is no
longer clear which measure is more probable. It seems possible to
me that Glak's measure is greatest in the alternative physics.
No problem with that. Then we will not fail him from his first
person perspective, because he will go back there in a nanosecond.
And the poor 3p-I staying here with us, well, he will suspect
something too, soon or later, for the preview reasons.
This should be clearer, hopefully, when I translate "probability" in
arithmetic. If Glak is Löbian, then it has the same physics than us,
and that can be approached by some modal logics related to
arithmetical self-reference. It is hard for me to really decide if
UDA is more simple or more complex than AUDA, on the heart of the
subject. You might tell me, soon or later :)
Bruno
Terren
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