2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> > > On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > >> There is still FPI going on in the "rogue" simulation - the one where >> Glak emerges from an alternative-physics, as there are infinite >> continuations from Glak's state(s) in the alternative physics. >> >> >> You cannot change the FPI, as it is the same for all machines. You are >> introducing a special physical continuation, which a priori does not make >> sense. Glak, in his own normal world obeys the same laws of physics than >> us, with a very different histories and geographies and biologies. >> >> > I'm asking you, for the moment, and in apparent contradiction with the > math, to suspend the AUDA entailment that there is a single physics. > > > OK. > > > > What I'm suggesting is that Glak's identity is constructed from something > more than its characterization as a "mere" Lobian machine. > > > That is right, unless he smokes something, or get a strike on the head or > something, and get highly amnesic. > > > > There is a reason why I will suddenly never wake up to be Bruno Marchal. > > > Yes, and it is the same as the reason why you will see a pen falling on > the grounds. > > > > Even if we are both Lobian machines, there is a lot more that goes through > our consciousness, > > > OK. > > > > in order to arrive at the unique subjective experience and identity of > Bruno or Terren, than mere Lobianity. I'm taking that further by > hypothesizing the example of Glak, whose subjective experience and identity > must be bound to a *particular* physics/biology, > > > A particular biology? No doubt. > A particular physics? This is what will lost his meaning. Of course, after > the UDA, we have to redefine physics, which is the measure (or science > trying to find that measure) on all (relative) computations, which: > 1) emulates my body (including my personal memory, my "identity") below > the substitution level > 2) and winning the measure (= are the most probable). > > Take an electron in some orbital. The orbital gives the map of those > winning computation (in case our level is given by the uncertainty > relation, to simplify). > > > > in such a way that a being who self-identifies as Glak, with all of Glak's > memories etc, could not possibly manifest in "our" physics. > > > What would that mean. If comp is correct, Glak can in principle be > emulated in our neighborhood, although perhaps not in real time. > > > > The sticking point of the AUDA for me has always been the identity of us, > as human beings, with the idealized machines being interviewed. We are > clearly Lobian, in some sense, but it also seems clear to me that our > consciousness, our subjective experience, integrates its embodiment. > > > Yes. But all effective extension of PA is Löbian. AUDA applies to all > Löbian machines, and that is why they will have the same physics (given by > S4Grz1, or/and Z1*, or /and X1*). > Anything NOT derivable in those mathematics will be defined as > geographical. If Glak's electron are more heavy, it means that the mass of > the electron depends on contingent aspect of the physical reality. > > our identity is not physical, but historico-geographical. The physics is > only what makes such historico-geographical apperance quite stable or > relatively numerous. Physics is what multiply the comp histories; That is > why Everett saves comp from solipsism. > > > > > Our (apparent) bodies are part of our identities, and through sensory > interfaces shape our subjective experience... and as our bodies are part of > physics, > > > Part. Only part. the contingent part. > > > > then Glak's body in an alternative physics is likewise a part of Glak's > identity, > > > Only what is above his substitution level, and the physics must be the > same as us, as, under the substitution level, he can only see what result > from the universal measure, which must exist by comp and the UD argument. > > > and the measure of the most probable continuations for Glak, I think, > require that alternative body, which require an alternative physics. > > > By UDA, it seems to me rather clear that you can only use an alternate > geography. > > Well... what's left to physics then ? many world ? because we can do virtual worlds with any physical laws we whish and if comp is true we could make self aware inhabitant living in such virtual worlds... so anything we can measure is a geographical fact and contingent... seems to reduce physics not to math but to approximately nothing and leave what we call physical laws as geography... because there is no proof that the world we leave in is not such simulation, so we cannot conclude anything from the weight of an electron we measure in our "universe".
Quentin > > > I'm wondering if there's room in the math for an accounting of > consciousness that goes beyond Lobian machines in such a way as to allow > for alternate physics. > > > Only if that alternate physics allows a non Turing emulable (at any level) > brain. If Glak's brain is Turing emulable, it will be distributed in the > UD*, like us, and if he look below its substitution level, he will have to > use the same universal statistics, but of course relatively to its own comp > state; which makes the difference of identity, geography, etc. > > Bruno > > > > > Terren > > >> >> >> The reason I am still unsure of your answer here Bruno >> >> >> It is a complex question. >> >> >> is that I can imagine a scenario where Glak is implemented in an >> alternative physics - that is to say, knows herself as Glak and has >> memories of being Glak - but Glak is not able to be implemented in "our" >> physics. >> >> >> At which level? What does that mean? >> >> >> >> >> For example, in the alternative physics world, Glak's psychology is >> embodied in a completely different kind of biology, a biology that is not >> compatible with our physics. Now by comp, Glak's mind can be uploaded to a >> simulation running in our physics, but it is no longer clear which measure >> is more probable. It seems possible to me that Glak's measure is greatest >> in the alternative physics. >> >> >> No problem with that. Then we will not fail him from his first person >> perspective, because he will go back there in a nanosecond. And the poor >> 3p-I staying here with us, well, he will suspect something too, soon or >> later, for the preview reasons. >> >> This should be clearer, hopefully, when I translate "probability" in >> arithmetic. If Glak is Löbian, then it has the same physics than us, and >> that can be approached by some modal logics related to arithmetical >> self-reference. It is hard for me to really decide if UDA is more simple >> or more complex than AUDA, on the heart of the subject. You might tell me, >> soon or later :) >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> Terren >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
