Gibbsa, No, you misunderstand what I'm saying.
Of course "the hubble rate can keep on going, passing the speed of light barrier, and forever onward and upward. Because, and precisely because, it's not generated by a physical translation in space." I agree with that and that's exactly what I'm saying. It's Pierz that is disagreeing with you. Pierz thinks space is expanding without taking any physical objects along with that expansion. If that were true nothing there would be no red shift and there would be no particle horizon beyond which the expansion of space carries galaxies so they can no longer be observed. Things move both IN space and WITH the expansion of space. Things moving with the expansion of space red shifts them, things moving RELATIVE TO the expansion of space gives variations of red and blue shifts for objects at the same distances in expanding space. The expansion of space occurs only in intergalactic space, but the space within galaxies, solar systems, etc. is gravitationally bound and is not expanding. Refer to Misner, Thorne and Wheeler's 'Gravitation' if you don't believe me.... Our solar system is not expanding due to the Hubble expansion because it is gravitationally bound... If it was you'd have a violation of the laws of orbital motion. Therefore there must be a space warping at the boundaries of galaxies which must produce a significant gravitational effect over time which could explain the dark matter effect.... Edgar On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 12:11:25 PM UTC-5, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 4:22:34 PM UTC, Edgar L. Owen wrote: >> >> PIerz, >> >> No, you are wrong here. Space doesn't expand around objects without the >> objects moving along with it. The positions of objects are positions IN >> space. Thus there is not a smooth expansion but the warping around galaxies >> I've pointed out. >> >> If you were correct the Hubble expansion of space wouldn't carry far >> galaxies along with it and redshift them. >> >> You are simply wrong here. Please remember that the next time you accuse >> me of being wrong about something! >> >> Edgar >> > > Edgar, the opposite is true. The hubble effect is constant if the > comparison is between any two pairs of adjacent galaxies, one pair compared > to the other, obviously controlling for distance between them. It's > constant in that sense whether or not the overall effect is accelerating as > it is at the moment. > > If the galaxies are independently moving in space, the distance to > adjacent galaxies is changing, and has to be controlled for, to keep that > constant effect. > > If you skip a galaxy and want the rate of expansion between a galaxy and > the second galaxy along, then you have to add the two adjacent rates > together, controlling for changes in distance caused by independent > movement of galaxies in space. If you want the next galaxy after that, it's > adding 3 adjacent values. > > This is why the hubble rate can keep on going, passing the speed of light > barrier, and forever onward and upward. Because, and precisely because, > it's not generated by a physical translation in space. > > > > >> >> >> >> >> On Monday, January 20, 2014 10:12:54 PM UTC-5, Pierz wrote: >>> >>> I don't know why the warping effect is "obvious". All space is >>> expanding, including that inside galaxies but the gravity effect keeps the >>> expansion from causing the galaxy to spread out. Imagine a soft disk >>> sitting on top of a balloon that is being blown up. The balloon surface >>> (space) both under and around the disk is expanding, but the object keeps >>> its size because of its internal forces. It's not as if there's some >>> boundary at the edge of galaxies at which expansion starts. >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 3:01:03 AM UTC+11, Edgar L. Owen wrote: >>>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> >>>> Here's one more theory from the many in my book on Reality: >>>> >>>> >>>> As Misner, Thorne and Wheeler note briefly in their book on >>>> Gravitation, INTERgalactic space is continually expanding with the Hubble >>>> expansion, however INTRAgalactic space is NOT expanding because it is >>>> gravitationally bound. >>>> >>>> Now the obvious effect of this (as I'm the first to have pointed out so >>>> far as I know) is that space will necessarily be warped at the boundaries >>>> of galaxies, and as is well know from GR any curvature of space produces >>>> gravitational effects, and of course dark matter halos around the EDGES of >>>> galaxies were invented to explain the otherwise unexplained extra >>>> gravitational effects on the rotation of galaxies. >>>> >>>> Thus, this simple effect of space warps around the boundaries of >>>> galaxies caused by the Hubble expansion may be the explanation for the >>>> dark >>>> matter effect. >>>> >>>> It may or may not be the cause of the entire effect, but it certainly >>>> must be having SOME effect, and over the lifetime of the universe one >>>> would >>>> expect that warping effect to be quite large. >>>> >>>> And there is nothing to prevent these warps, once they are created, to >>>> have a life and movement of their own, as we now know that dark matter is >>>> not just concentrated around galactic halos but may indicate where they >>>> used to be.... >>>> >>>> I'd be interested to see if anyone else sees how this effect might >>>> explain dark matter... >>>> >>>> Edgar >>>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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