On Thursday, April 3, 2014 12:40:21 AM UTC+1, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Thursday, April 3, 2014 12:35:39 AM UTC+1, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> On Thursday, April 3, 2014 12:03:51 AM UTC+1, Liz R wrote: >>> >>> On 3 April 2014 11:46, <ghi...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 11:10:18 PM UTC+1, Liz R wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 3 April 2014 10:55, <ghi...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, March 31, 2014 6:41:55 AM UTC+1, Liz R wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not sure collapse is an observed fact. Collapse is an assumption >>>>>>> which explains how we come to measure discrete values. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Would mind helping me place your meaning in terms of mine Liz? >>>>>> , >>>>>> Say, if we imagine a process of stripping back the meaning of >>>>>> 'wave-function' based on the single goal only, of finding the common >>>>>> ground >>>>>> starting point, least open to different - likely mis-conception, very >>>>>> likely my side. >>>>>> >>>>>> On that basis, my stripped back wave-function is the pattern made on >>>>>> the in the two slit experiment, by all those particles coming through, >>>>>> where each one hits. Purely on that temporary definition alone, would we >>>>>> be >>>>>> on common ground (a) so far as it goes - given the goal - it's a >>>>>> legitimate definition (b) the wave function is an observed fact, and so >>>>>> is >>>>>> its collapse? . >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My take on this is that the wave function is what is assumed to >>>>> explain the interference pattern formed by the particles, and collapse is >>>>> what is assumed, in the Copenhagen view, to explain why the pattern is >>>>> made >>>>> up of individual pointlike events. The Bohm and MWI (and probably the >>>>> time-symmetry) views make different assumptions to explain this seemingly >>>>> counter-intuitive result. >>>>> >>>>> Hence the observed fact is that an interference pattern builds up from >>>>> many discrete events, and several hypotheses have been put forward to >>>>> explain this, wavefunction collapse being one of them >>>>> >>>> >>>> I've no criticism of that, save subjective that I still can't nail the >>>> common ground. Given that on the terms of 'temporarily stripping back' the >>>> way I said, doesn't have to satisfy the way you just said, beyond the >>>> minimal standard of being, alright as a gross simplification? I mean, it's >>>> reasonable a gross simplification would merge a distinction between the >>>> pattern on the backscreen and the nature intrinsic to the pattern itself, >>>> and the ultimate cause of that, to "the pattern on the backscreen >>>> representing the impact points of particles" or isn't it? >>>> >>> >>> Sorry I can't really parse that. >>> >>> >>>> If it isn't, then we can simplify back further, and just call the >>>> 'pattern on the backscreen'. >>>> >>>> We can simplify the 'collapse' back further and call that "the pattern >>>> disappears". >>>> >>>> I'm not taking the piss Liz...it will help me to see a concrete common >>>> ground component of what is an experimentally observed fact. It's fine if >>>> you don't think that's the issue...it might not be in the end, but if we >>>> can agree on something that is an observed fact, we can probably use that >>>> to work out, how gross a simplification you think it is, vs I think it is. >>>> As things stand, the apparent indication all considered is that you think >>>> it's a simplification far greater and grosser than I think it is :O) >>>> >>> >>> What was wrong with my statement of the observed fact - "an interference >>> pattern builds up from many pointlike events" ? The only thing to (perhaps) >>> take issue with is the meaning of "pointlike", I would say, which could be >>> taken to mean "small compared to the scale of the interference pattern". >>> Here is an illustration: >>> >>> [image: Inline images 1] >>> >> >> >> Nothing wrong with it Liz, if you are willing to state what is an >> observed fact, and what sense you would also accept that observed >> fact could be entirely defined as - probably a simplification - within the >> bounds of what you actually think the wavefunction is really about, or >> the debate pertaining to that. >> >> Because...look I know all the stuff you just defined, about >> the backscreen pattern being representation of where the individual bits >> hit, the images, and so on. So that's a form of common ground which is >> great. But it doesn't confirm the common ground that I suggest we need to >> have this particular conversation. Which you obviously are under no >> obligation to have, of course. But I'm being dogmatic here...I don't >> see how to understand the reasonable distinction you are making, such >> that the patern on the backscreen, however you want to define, is an >> observable fact, and so is its disappearance. And yet, the disappearance of >> the wavefunction is not observable. >> >> I'm sure there's plenty of theory sitting behind that. But surely you >> can also nail it directly to what is observable, and is fact, in terms of >> that being NOT implicate of observability of the disappearnance of the wave >> function.. >> > > I meant "I'm not being dogmatic here". Not a Freudian slip at least so far > as I dig within myself. Clearly, my brain does not like, or believe, the > distinction that gets banded around here, that 'collapse' isn't 'observed'. > It looks like magical made up nonsense to me, to make a desired theory > stand-up that otherwise would not. And that does not have to be known or > conscious any more than the bias that is blocking me from seeing the truth > in that distinction needs to be known or conscious at my end. Hence neither > of us have to be dogmatically motivated. > The mitigation I can offer for my reprobate positioning, is that I do accept there's a QM in need of an Interpretation, and that the right interpretation would enjoy the status of it literally being QM and QM literally being it. The linkages I am yet seeing, is that MWI is the right interpretation to anything approximating a scientific standard. Nor, that there is not a reasonable way that - whatever one believes regarding what, if any, the right interpretation is, that this makes it a practical impossibility for that person to envisage a time before the interpretation that saw QM invented - discovered - by individuals that did not and could not have anticipated what the outcome of their journey of discovery would end up saying, and yet managed to discover it, to an excellent standard still not improved on today, on its own terms. Such standard that inevitably involved predictions, and observations, thus linkages between them in terms of definable objects. Such that, there had to be a predicted and observed representation of what a pattern on a backscreen was thought to be connected with, and indeed what predicted that backpattern. And what was observed about that backpattern, that led to the NEED for an interpretation? I don't actually see how any such need could not have involved major and fundamental problems arising for the body of knowledge acquired to date, in terms of the most robust - or thought so - principles defined with it. I mean, surely, you can see things through those lenses, and state what was observable that the need for an interpretation arose?
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