> On 19-Apr-2014, at 1:15 pm, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > >> On 19 Apr 2014, at 08:42, Samiya Illias wrote: >> >> The harmful effects of the consumption of intoxicants for the individual and >> its consequent effects on society are observable. The bans are in thus in >> the larger interest. > > > This does not follow. Banning intoxicant augments the intoxicant consumption, > and so, if that is bad, it leads to the contrary effect than the one desired. > > Agree to disagree :)
> >> However, if cannabis and other drugs have some medicinal benefits, then the >> research should continue to find the correct, beneficial use of them, as >> well as the side-effects. > > Sure. > > >> >> In Islam, consumption of intoxicants are discouraged. The arabic word used >> for intoxicants, in the Quran, is al-khamr. The root alphabets of the word >> are kh-m-r which means to cover or hide something. Intoxicants, it implies, >> cover the intellect, and thus are discouraged. > > Does it? The Sufi thinks differently (as you know and can see by searching > "sufi drug use". For them, some psychotropic does not cover the intellect, > but discover it. > I am aware of the Sufi branch and thought. However, I am only quoting the Quran, the original Arabic text, which all sects agree upon as the Book revealed to Prophet Muhammad, which has not undergone any change, and is preserved in written form as well as in the memory of millions of human beings till this day. If something is intoxicating the mind, then how can it be considered safe to 'discover the intellect' unless the intellect has not yet been discovered? ;) In that case, in the absence of an active intellect, can such a person be expected to making a rational decision of choosing whether or not to 'use the drug'?? > > >> >> It is explained: [Quran 2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of >> chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for >> men, and their sin is greater than their profit... > > That is an authoritative argument. You must understand that this is not a > good point for the Quran, or that interpretation of the Quran. > How can *you* be sure if the prophet did not misunderstood God? > The original Arabic words of the Quran have not suffered any change over the centuries. They are not the words of the Prophet. He was only the messenger, transmitting the revelation as received. Have you come across any human book which has about 6236 sentences, and millions of people know it by heart completely, from beginning till end? This original manuscript is protected from human interpretation... > >> >> The word used for sin also means frustration; tiredness; laziness. Thus, I >> gather, both mind and body eventually suffer from the harmful effects of the >> intoxicant, and thus the negatives far outweigh the benefits. >> >> Initially, the believers were advised to pray when in a clear state of mind, >> and not when under the influence of intoxicants: : [Quran 4:43] O you who >> believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know >> (well) what you say,... >> >> Gradually, they were exhorted to refrain from it altogether: [Quran 5:90] O >> ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and >> (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew >> such (abomination), that ye may prosper. >> >> References: >> [Quran 2:219] >> http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=2&from_verse=218&to_verse=220&mac=&translation_setting=1&show_yusufali=1&show_shakir=1&show_pickthal=1&show_mkhan=1&show_urdu=1 >> >> >> [Quran 4:43] >> http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=4&from_verse=42&to_verse=44&mac=&translation_setting=1&show_yusufali=1&show_shakir=1&show_pickthal=1&show_mkhan=1&show_urdu=1 >> >> >> [Quran 5:90] >> http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=5&from_verse=89&to_verse=92&mac=&translation_setting=1&show_yusufali=1&show_shakir=1&show_pickthal=1&show_mkhan=1&show_urdu=1 >> > > > Conventional religion have a tradition of forbidding anything which can lead > to psychotropic experience, if not mystic experience, because they have > decided of what is truth, and psychotropic experience are able to question > it, and usually leads to making the doubt greater. > > In the religious matter, even more than in science, I think we cannot let > other people think for you. Exactly! That is why we must not be under the influence of any intoxicant so as to be able to think clearly! > In my religion, you can caricature the prophets, even God, and you can burn > the sacred text without blaspheming, but then you *do* a genuine blasphem > when you dare to talk in its name. If I'm misguided, then you are right. However, I earnestly believe that the Quran is God-sent and it helps us understand our purpose here on Earth, and where we are headed. > You can only trust God to talk directly to the heart of the people. You can't > suggest any action or inaction in its name, as it becomes the worst > authoritative and manipulative argument. There are just no human intermediate > between you and God. God is immanent and personal and needs no intermediary. However, God has been kind enough to send guidance through human messengers, who have lived and shown that it is possible for humans to follow guidance and become all that God has created us to become > Contemplation community, and dances, prayers, can be allowed, but nobody can > decide actions and inactions, and normalize behavior in Its Name. If you > believe in God, trust him. > To be sure, there is no problem liking sacred texts, but not for any > normative action. Some "intoxicant" can help to understand this, and that is > why, I think, some tradition and societies wanting to control you, are > condemning them. > > Of course, in the Abramanic religion, God can be seen as the first > prohibitionist, and the first to suggest that prohibition can't work. Explain > me how God, with his infinite power, has not been able to control a > population having only two individuals, Adam and Eve. How could He not > prevent them to consume the illicit fruit of knowledge? As per the Quran, God created Adam as a 'Khalifa' for the Earth (someone responsible for its well-being). The test in Heaven was part of the Divine Plan, and so was the subsequent sending down to Earth. Perhaps it was an important lesson to learn before starting the trial on Earth. > Answer: he planned them to have the choice and get the knowledge. He might > permit the shortcut between Earth and Heaven, but not the use of it to > manipulate the others and talk in His name. > Agree, and that's why we are wary of drug-induced 'awareness', which we believe is not a divine, but rather a devilish experience, being presented in God's name. Samiya > Bruno > > > >> >> >> Samiya >> >> >> >> >>> On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 3:52 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: >>>> On 4/18/2014 7:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>>> What society thinks has nothing to do with it, because weak >>>> correlation-based scientific evidence is used selectively to create laws >>>> that were desired a priori by some interest group. >>> That implies some nefarious motive and corrupt use of data known to be >>> wrong. In fact there was no nefarious 'interest group' that wanted to ban >>> marijuana or to ban alcohol or to ban heroin. All these bans were >>> initiated by people who believed in the ill effects of these substances for >>> individuals and for society. In many cases they had personal experience. >>> That the bans may have given rise to criminal activities to circumvent >>> them, isn't to the point of their origin. >>> >>> Brent >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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