On 10 Jun 2014, at 13:00, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Sun, Jun 8, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 08 Jun 2014, at 12:30, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Sun, Jun 8, 2014 at 6:12 AM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote:
On 8 June 2014 15:43, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]
> wrote:
I do know what I am criticizing, and view Marx and Engels claims in
Manifesto, and Das Kapital as nothing more than deliberate lies to
defer just criticism, especially, when viewed in the light of Marx
and Engels, quotes, journals, and articles. The withering away
concept was deliberately used as sop, to those who Marx knew would
grow weary of state oppression. Just a little longer and then it
will be perfect, everyone will be a Barron, and master of their own
world. The Castro regime still uses it as an excuse for economic
stagnation. As C. Northcoate Parkinson said, "Delay is the most
deadly form of denial."
OK, I take it back. That's a valid viewpoint. (I don't know if
there is evidence to support it?)
I would say that this viewpoint is validated empirically: all
attempts at marxist societies devolved into authoritarianism.
Lenin famously said:
"While the state exists, there can be no freedom. When there is
freedom there will be no state."
I have no reason to assume he wasn't being honest. It's just that
it doesn't work. But it is perhaps incorrect to claim that early
marxist philosophers desired authoritarianism.
It would been unfair to say that they desired authoritarianism. But
they didn't desire democracy either, and did not conceive that the
implementations of their ideas could be done by the people in some
incremental voting way. They missed the importance of democracy.
To make it clear, I am not defending marxism. I think it has been
thoroughly empirically falsified.
You are quick! It has never been implemented.
Except perhaps in his socialist or left part of politics, where its
social security can be tempered by the right will of liberty.
I think it's important to make it clear precisely what was
falsified. I get the impression that a lot of people that criticise
or propose marxism (and other ideologies) do not fully understand
what it is that they are criticising or proposing.
Democracies are not perfect, and can be very sick, but it is better
than anything else.
I am a bit suspicious of this claim, because that seems to be the
perception that every era has of its system of governance: before
the barbarians, now the age of reason. We just need to fix some
quirks, but we have the perfect system now...
Actually we don't have a better right know, and if you look at
history, that system is the best to guarantie drink and food to a
majority, and to temper the natural hate that some people can have for
some neighbors.
But I think the critics is unfair for another reason: democracies have
been perverted. Indeed by monopolisation on money (based willingly or
not on a large amount of black money).
That is a cancer of our social democracies. To criticize the system is
for me like cells criticizing the blood cells circuit for feeding the
cancer cells.
Whatever the good idea is defended in politics, it is better to
submit it to vote, and even still better when doing this without
propaganda and unfair financial lobbying.
I would say that it is even better if the idea can be implemented
without coercion, so that no vote is necessary.
Like ants? But they have very few choices. how will you determine when
begin the coercion? Vote is a mean to objectively diminishes the
natural coercion that humans and human groups develop with respect to
themselves.
The growth of the Internet is a great example of such a modality.
Hopefully, crypto-currencies will also make it in this fashion.
Those are indeed sane reaction to the threat of democracy by bandits.
Democracies can be improved, and sick democracies can be cured.
Today we need something like anti-propaganda laws, and anti-special-
interest lobbying or things like that.
The more laws you create, the more loopholes are generated for
hostile agents to explore.
This i agree with. OK: one law. You lie your tax double.
I think it is best to insist on no-coercion: you can create whatever
rules you like, but I must always be free to opt-out of your society.
I am not sure. Not yet. I would feel like in a plane piloted by all
passengers.
The problem today is that we don't have a mondial democracy, so that
we can't hardly defend ourselves against trans-individual trades, some
of them based on money based on lies (which hurst and kill).
It not a problem of democracy but of lack of democracies at the
international level, and the corruption of some groups aggravating.
We need more democracies, not less.
Today our democracies are in peril, not much due to the financial
sphere, but due to the erosion of the separation of powers, which
favor groups of interest again the individual interests of the
majority of individuals.
It could be argued that this is the logical consequence of democracy
in its current format.
Sure, so let us try to understand what happened. The real question is
"how in the free in the land people have tolerated the prohibition of
medication?
The founders of america, and the bandits knew well the answers: by
fear propaganda.
OK. We got the lesson. We apologize, and make prohibition more clearly
anti-constitutional. No need to abandon the votes, as it is the only
ay to minimize the coercion.
I understand your ideal for the longer term. But the planet is a
delicate vessel, and we have bad habits toward ourselves.
Representative democracy is based on the idea that we cannot trust
the average person with freedom, but we can let them decide who
decides. Then we believe that we can trust the minority of the
elected elite with all the power and all the freedom, and we are
surprised when they also act in selfish ways...
They can be as selfish as they want. I love selfish person, unless
they are dishonest and not playing the game, which is the case when
the democracy has been perverted by liars.
By criticizing the system, you hide the role and the responsibility of
the bandits.
Democracy in its current format is still a system of dominance.
I think that if two universal machine collaborate for a third they
will dissociate into the []p & p and the []p, and one will dominate on
the other, the month with "r".
We still need bosses. Just abandon the idea that the boss is always
right.
Of course, we have to think about stopping using money to make money,
but to use money to share and economize works.
It is a sophisticated one, in that the serfs have plausible
deniability of being serfs. A symptom of this is when you keep
reading opinions using the social "we". "We have to have a debate
about state surveillance". Against all evidence, people insist on
believing that there is a "we" that can decide to stop such things
after a "debate". The contrast of Obama's first campaign with his
actions as President made this painfully obvious to some of us, but
not the majority of us.
I agree. The evidences are obvious. But that's a cancer of democracy.
Not democracy.
But I hope they will correct themselves enough instead of making a
police states (in the US), and the progress of cannabis legalization
is encouraging in that regards, although only a full rethinking of
politics needs to be done to understand how this has been possible.
I don't believe in referenda, except for rare big decisions. Too
much referenda is not democratic. You can influence people too much
easily, by TV or other media, and it is better to vote for the wrong
idea, and then to vote perhaps on some other idea after a serious
long period to better evaluate if the idea was not working or not.
But there is not option to vote on ideas at all. I cannot pick and
chose. I cannot say that I am for gays adopting and against gun
control. This is not on the menu.
Normally you create the menu, but your programs have to satisfy enough
people in the neighborhood. We face a complex problem: nourishing
billions of people. That is not that complex, especially if we listen
to the people. But we still have to organize ourselves which means
accepting some coercion, from a means based on that people listening.
We accept coercion from nature. You will not organize a strike against
the gravitation law, OK?
Bruno
Telmo.
Bruno
Telmo.
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