How might scientists prove that math exists beyond the brain?? If we can build some kind of coarse grain detector, say, of neutrinos passing through the vacuum, and uncovering planck cells?
-----Original Message----- From: Rex Allen <rexallen31...@gmail.com> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> Sent: Sat, Jan 24, 2015 9:54 am Subject: Re: Manifesto Rex On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 1:04 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: On 22 Jan 2015, at 05:58, Rex Allen wrote: I think my main problem with platonism is that I don't see why a mathematical universe would generate beings who then develop true beliefs about the mathematical nature of the universe. But Gödel + Church + Kleene + Post + Turing + Matiyazevich... discovery *is* the discovery that just the arithmetical reality if full of entities, machines, and non-machines, which struggle to understand what happens, and develop true and false beliefs around the subject. But does "arithmetical reality" exist outside of the human mind? I would tend to say - no. The human mind entertains concepts. This is one of them. This is proved. What is not proved is that they are conscious, but they need to be if you assume that there is no magic (actual infinities, non-local 3p influences, 3p indeterminacies) playing in the brain. So there is no way that that GR+QFT+IC can (in principle) mechanistically explain observed human behavior and mathematical ability? I am not referring to the first person subjective experience. Just the third person observed behavior. Which was also my problem with physicalism - in that why would a random (i.e., not specially chosen) set of physical laws and initial conditions lead to the development of beings who are then able to correctly (or even approximately) discover those physical laws and initial conditions. If we say that GR+QFT+IC+Evo is true - this is a problem, since evolution seems to only care about survival and reproduction - not truth. So how do evolved beings like us arrive at a true theory like that? But a scientist will never say that <anything> is true. He will just say what he believes in, knowing he might be wrong. We can only hope getting close to the truth, but even in arithmetic, lies can be consistent, and truth can depart from wishes, etc. However - if we only say that GR+QFT+IC+Evo is *useful* (and not true) - this is more consistent - since it also predicts that evolved beings will develop useful (i.e., survival-enabling) theories. "usefulness" would reduce science to instrumentalism, and then the question which will be forbid will be "instrument for what"? Torture? Correct. I like instrumentalism. Instrument for what? For whatever we want. As a tool for accomplishing our goals. Whatever they may be. But you are right, truth is not always useful, but lies makes things harder, and should be avoided in most situations, I think. I think I understand why you think consciousness "precedes" logic and arithmetic. I think that this is coherent with the first person view of the "universal person", as consciousness is atemporal at that level, and is the origin of all possible consciousness content. But that is still an inside view. That general consciousness is the atemporal consciousness of the löbian machine, and perhaps even just the universal one. It is something approximated by <>t? & <>t It is an unconscious "Am I consistent?" in consistent situation. It is also a semantical fixed point. It provides the meaning of "meaning" somehow, and let the senses filtered it into consistent scenarios. I tend to think that, like information, meaning is a difference that makes a difference. Which is to say, meaning is a felt difference that makes a felt difference. Which is to say, meaning is a difference in conscious experience that feels like it makes a difference to conscious experience. Which is to say, that our consciousness is just a web of felt differences that feel like they have some significance. As to what accounts to all of these differences - a "useful" way of looking at it is is that they are a product of evolution's focus on survival and reproduction. Rex -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
