Conceit is a human foible, and is often an attribute of experts.Thinking of
conceit, we now have contrary evidence that reverses the 1997 WMAP study of an
accelerating universe, expansion-wise, we now have some evidence of a fast
reversal (heat death) instead, and the WMAP researchers won Nobel prizes in
physics. Also, dudes like Krauss and company (conceited) tended to gripe at
anyone opposing this (WMAP 1997) yet we have new research. All it probably
means is that we need better equipment to do measures. More measuring, and less
conceit please.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Ochei <do.infinit...@gmail.com>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Apr 23, 2015 2:45 pm
Subject: Re: God
yes, B(Bp --> p) will tie you in knots. Conceit breeds inaccuracy.
The battleground of ideas should always be the mind, not the streets. If you
require force to convince, you've already admitted that your ideology cannot
stand on its own
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com>
wrote:
In Short : either you know that you believe or you believe that you know
In any case you can not avoid belief
if you are in the first group, you are being objective, you know your
standpoint of ignorance, and you can reason about it. This paradoxically is the
most exceptic of the two standpoints. You will be tolerant and compassionate
with every other since you know that no one is free from ignorance. and
ignorance therefore is the most probable source of evil.
if you are in the second group (the gnostic standpoint), yo are unaware of your
ignorance. You are not conscious of your beliefs as beliefs Your own
metaphysics is hidden from your rational judgement That is the purest form of
faith in his most primitive sense. Since you take your beliefs as knowledge you
will consider that every price is worth to pay for the widespread of your
truth. since you communicate the truth and other people and they don´t accept
it, being so obvious for you, probably you will think that these people are
evil, or controlled by some evil persons or gods or social conditions.
I suppose that I don´t need to explain what are the consequences of that
second standpoint. This is the standpoint of scientism, when scientific
disciplines that have consequences for human politics are taken as a
politic-religious ideology, as knowledge above and beyond belief.
2015-04-23 0:42 GMT+02:00 Dennis Ochei <do.infinit...@gmail.com>:
Yes, ignorance and fanaticism under any banner, including that of science and
reason, will leave a trail of bodies in their wake. But unless you have an
alternative to using reason and science to understand the world around and
within us (divine revelation?) i don't see your point.
Religion gives people bad reasons to be good, when good reasons abound.
Also, im not a nominalist.
> These people like you are the ones that the world must fear
>
Yes! Tremble! Mwhahahahaha!
haha, there is nothing fear from me. My hands are tied, since I know
harming others is equivalent to harming myself
On Wednesday, April 22, 2015, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com> wrote:
Poor nominalists...
Ever what you call "science" and "reason" has claimed prevalence over religion
has been to produce massacres, since 1789 and even before. the religion of the
ones that wave the flags of "science" and "reason", that is, thae ones that
claim knowledge without conscience that what they have is some kind of faith
based on a particular metaphysics. are the most dangerous ones.
These people like you are the ones that the world must fear
2015-04-22 22:50 GMT+02:00 Dennis Ochei <do.infinit...@gmail.com>:
I think you interpretted my words in a different way than I
intended. My point was merely that theists use motte and bailey tactics,
modifying their definition of God as soon as you start tightening the screws.
If you cut off one head the theist will confabulate a new one for their
religious belief. People say science cannot kill religion. But I say that
science has killed religion countless times, and continues to do so. But
religion rises again from its ashes, generally more benign than before.
Once we have dispelled illusions, the religion that emerges then
will be beautiful. But until that time most instances of religion are things
that reason and empiricism must put down to perfect.
On Wednesday, April 22, 2015, John Mikes < jami...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Dennis:
"God always means something just shy of disproven and
always fills the gaps of understanding ..."
I don't need to "disprove" something that has not been
"proven" - or at least described as possible. BTW: nothing can be 'proven'
except for ignorance.
To keep pace with the unfathomable Everything (not the
restricted physical topic-content of this list) the flexibility of the human
(ignorant) mind requires a 'creator', a 'sustainer' a "BOSS" like a king for a
country. That is called 'GOD'.
You may believe (in) it. Know you cannot. So there is no
way to disprove.
Sometimes 'God' fills the gaps of misunderstanding
(ignorance) as well.
I don't believe that going back to more primitive times
(less facts included into our worldview) even the smartest(?) minds could LEAD
our ignorance to better wisdom. Aristotle's 'total' (in my pun: the "Aris -
Total") was MORE than the sum of HIS counted ingredients, which included only
the listable material parts. Then we have learned about functions, attributes,
connections, variants, variations etc. and added lots of includable 'parts' to
the total.
Plato did not even pretend to visualize the 'world': he
imagined a SHADOW of it on the wall as our percept of reality(?), situated
BEHIND us (=invisibly).
I esteem Bruno's ideas - am no mathematician - can rarely
follow them, yet I never got a reply to my question about "what are the
NUMBERS" from him.
I consider 'computation' as (Lat) com (cum) - putare
(thinking), mind's work, to add 2 and 2 together, definitely not restricted to
the numberical terms. It may be also to add an animal, or plant to an
environment. Real, or fake.
Since the early 90s I participated on more than a dozen
discussion lists, this one has exciting and lesser exciting posts and posters.
Best regards
John Mikes
On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Dennis Ochei
<do.infinit...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not gonna lie, i find this exchange rather entertaining. I dont know what
side I'd pick, but I will say I've never been 100% clear on what Bruno meant by
Aristotelian or Platonist before now. What does Bruno do with personal
pronouns? I have to agree that at least some of Bruno's written correspondence
is hard to follow, but esotericism is par for the course in philosophy
anyway...
God always means something just shy of disproven and always fills the gaps of
understanding
On Tuesday, April 21, 2015, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 , LizR <lizj...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> In order to participate in a forum like this you need to accept that certain
> shorthands are commonly used.
None of Bruno's shorthands or acronyms are commonly used, they are used on this
list and nowhere else. And even here they are not used with any rational
consistency. And then Bruno uses common words in very uncommon ways; I still
don't know what the word "God" means in Brunospeak. And don't get me started on
personal pronouns!
> For example "Aristotelian" just means anyone who assumes primary materialism
>
OK so now I know that in Bruno's Humpty-Dumpty
dictionary a materialist is someone who doesn't even pretend to know if
mathematics begat physics or physics begat mathematics.
> Bruno shouldn't need to have to constantly
explain what he means by these terms.
No, he needs to do exactly that. Bruno insists on using the
Humpty-Dumpty dictionary and he has the only copy, so he needs to
constantly explain what the hell he means; either that or throw away the
Humpty-Dumpty dictionary.
John K Clark
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Duke University '13
Neuroscience/Computer Science, Music 3♭
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