If someone else can explain the problem that John Clark see, let him or her helps him.
All points below have been answered, and is full or trick to makes things looking more complex, and simultaneously omit the definition given. This concerns, the step 3 of the Universal Dovetailer Argument accessible here: http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html You might print the slide to have an overview of the 8 steps. I do the 8th step rather differently today. Ask any question. I think John Clark do just very bad philosophy, asking impossible but irrelevant precision, once we use the definition given. I have never met someone not understanding this more than four years (yes some other people took some time, but once they got he pont admit that it is indeed a really simple and obvious point. The 8th step, as I do it today, is more demanding in computer science and requires the understanding that the notion of computation does not require any assumption on physics, nor in metaphysics.Computation is not just a mathematical concept but a concept that can be defined in elementary arithmetic. Bruno > On 25 Sep 2018, at 00:56, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 9:58 AM Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be > <mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> wrote: > > >>So you demand that the first person view of the Moscow man tomorrow predict > >>today > > > No. I ask this, since day one, to the H-guy; before he pushes the button. > > Stop talking about "the H-guy" until you tell all of us exactly what you mean > by the term! I mean anyone who REMEMBERS being a guy in Helsinki before a > button was pushed, and thus that guy still exists after the button was > pushed. However if a different definition is used, if the H-guy IS the person > before the button was pushed then obviously "the H-guy" will not exist after > the button was pushed, and that would be true regardless of if the button is > connected to a people duplicating machine or just connected to a doorbell. It > all depends on exactly what "the H-guy" means. I am crystal clear about all > this, why can't you be? What exactly do you want predicted and just as > important who do you want to make the prediction? > > >>Nobody can ask the H-guy anything unless yesterday before any of this > >>started everybody agreed on exactly what "the H-guy" means, I have provided > >>a clear unambiguous definition of that term but you have not. > > > I cannot parse the sentence. > > That surprises me because it was not a complex sentence. Which word didn't > you understand? > > >>Asking "How many cities do you see?" would be a dumb question to ask. What > >>you should ask is "Given our predetermined agreement about what the term > >>means made before anybody was copied how many cities do you think the H-guy > >>ended up seeing?”. > > > >That is simply not the question asked. > > Then what the hell was the question asked?? If its a Monday do you think > these 2 questions asked of the Helsinki man are equivalent? > > 1) How many cities will you see on Tuesday? > 2) How many cities will the Helsinki man see on Tuesday? > > If they are not equivalent then what is the referent of "you"? > If there are equivalent then must "the Helsinki man" be in Helsinki? And can > the Helsinki man of Monday exist on Tuesday? If the answers are yes then the > Helsinki man will see 2 cities at the same time on Tuesday. > > You will no doubt respond with talk about peepee but if it makes sense you > should be able to insert the peepee into the question on Monday so that it > can be answered with a simple yes or no on Tuesday, but you don't know how to > do that because the entire thing makes no sense. > > >You eliminate the first person experience. > > I'm not eliminating anything I just want to know exactly what is the question > that you ask the H-guy today before the duplication is, and what question > you will ask the 2 guys tomorrow after the duplication that you belive will > refute or confirm the correctness of the answer given by the guy on Monday. > And I don't think I'm being unreasonable in wanting to know what the hell > we're talking about. > > > If the H-guy is promise coffee at both place, he can predict clearly that > > after pushing the button he [...] > > No, "he" can't do predict anything nor can anybody else until we know exactly > who "he" is. > > Bruno said Bruno always knows who the referent is when personal pronouns are > used in this thought experiment but in John's last post John asked Bruno to > prove it by simply not using them, but John predicted Bruno would not do > that. John's prediction turned out to be correct. > > >the question is about the 1p experience, not about some person is from a 3p > >point of view. > > Stop telling me what the question is about and tell be what exactly the > question that you ask in Helsinki IS. I want to know the specific question > you ask the Helsinki man today, what his answer is, and what questions you > will ask the copies tomorrow that you think will refute it , And there must > be NO PERSONAL PRONOUNS in the question, but that shouldn't problem as you > claim to always know who the referent is. Also the question should be about > what somebody expects to happen but what somebody predicts will happen. > The statement "I expect to see Santa Claus workshop on Tuesday" may be true > but that doesn't mean I will see Santa Claus workshop on Tuesday. > > John K Clark > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
