Rick, That's an excellent way to put it. I hope you don't mind if I quote directly starting at "tape is essential". I hope no one minds, but I am intending to pull the things I learn here into a report/request and try again with my Boss to see if I can open his eyes. rachel
-----Original Message----- From: Pascoe, Rick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 3:23 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Autodesk Discussion List Not really, no. I used to be a consultant to the AEC industry before the NAAUG became AUGI.com (AutoDesk User Group International) so I'm not sure how comprehensive their site is but you may want to give them a try. FWIW I feel your pain. Many of my clients were older individuals who didn't like, want or understand technology so trying to convince them of it's value is a tough job. Typically tho, tape is essential for disaster recovery, DVD is for "permanent" archive. If the projects need to be readily accessible for years on end, look in to creating .pdf images for "reference" material (much smaller file size) and compress (zip) when feasible. The DVDs should only be accessed when an actual CAD modifiable file is required. Rick Pascoe IT Department St. Anne School 949/487-2663 x232 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rachel Pickens Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 12:57 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Autodesk Discussion List No I had not tried that recently. Thank you for reminding me. Do you have any other good spots? rp -----Original Message----- From: Pascoe, Rick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 2:46 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Autodesk Discussion List Have you tried: http://discussion.autodesk.com/index.jspa and check the "CAD Managers" group. Not a listserve email system but a search on "backup" gave pages of information. Rick Pascoe IT Department St. Anne School 949/487-2663 x232 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rachel Pickens Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 12:01 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Autodesk Discussion List Now everyone out there having a heart attack about the exchanger server, relax. That's on tape. I put up with some crap to get this job done but us doormats have our limits <G> It was a purchase I asked permission for after the fact. I can't really give you an accurate measure. The data is xcopied (yes its an ugly stop gap measure) to another HD and then burned to DVD. It usually takes something along the lines of DAYS to get it burned to DVD. Barring emergencies where I can't do this part of the job in the background it takes 5 days, if I have the media prepped and verified that it is good. But I will try. Xcopy starts at 8pm and finishes around 5am. I have to finish early because people start working here at 6am. Media check takes 1/2 hr to an hr The burner is a 1X we bought it very early on. The burn is actually done on my workstation. So I have to work around it, while I try to keep up with the rest of my job. It takes 5 days at least counting the xcopy. If it was all I did, I could get it done in 2 days probably. Get this, My other boss suggested I save time by not compressing. A full DVD double sided takes about an hour. If you can afford the time to sit there and select the files to fit the DVD. If anyone can suggest a site like this one for autodesk products I would really appreciate it. This site has saved me from a lot of trouble. Thank you all Rachel -----Original Message----- From: Ben Winzenz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 1:40 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Autodesk Discussion List Ok, here goes. Let's compare, shall we say, backing up 180gb on DVD vs. DLT (or SDLT, or LTO). First: SDLT. I back up 180gb in roughly 6 hours - on 1 tape. That translates to roughly 30gb/hour, or 500mb/min. The more data there is on one server, the faster the throughput is. I get well over 1000mb/min on Exchange (~30gb), and my SQL server (~30gb). I have no intervention except to switch the tapes on a daily basis (takes 2 minutes). SDLT drives cost roughly $3000 (maybe less). SDLT tapes are re-usable many times. DLT typically has the same advantages SDLT does, it just can't back up *as* fast. However, backup speeds of 300-400mb/min are not uncommon for regular DLT. LTO is very comparable to SDLT. Next, let's take DVD. The fastest DVD burner I've seen on the market is an 8x burner. This means it can burn an entire DVD in roughly 7-10 minutes. However, you have to take into account that the computer creating the DVD must first index and assemble all that data. Creating just 1 full DVD likely takes more like a half hour or so (assuming the computer is fairly fast). This is just a guesstimate. Since you are currently using this method, why don't you post how long it takes you to back up the 90gb you back up to DVD. Also, unless you use DVD-rewritable disks, the disks are not re-usable. Plus, when using RW disks, speeds are slower, and media must be re-formatted before being re-used. CD's will be comparable to DVD, with the added disadvantage that capacity is only 700mb perCD. So, take the time and effort that you use to backup 80gb to DVD, multiply it by 2.25, then report back your numbers compared to the numbers I gave for SDLT. I bet it takes you longer to back up 80gb onto DVD than it takes me to back up 180gb to tape. I'm curious :) Ben Winzenz Microsoft Exchange MVP Network Engineer Gardner & White Ph (317) 843-3418 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rachel Pickens Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 2:10 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Autodesk Discussion List The Boss's choice is DVD and CD. I need arguments and proofs that convince him tape is reasonably safer than it used to be, and a whole lot faster. My boss isn't some VP or manager/underling type, he is The Boss, The president and majority stock owner in the company. If he says frog, not only do you jump, you croak like one too. (well, mostly. He has his good points, like not calling after hours and on the weekends) He is just more stubborn than any plow mule you have ever seen. I would love to talk more if you have time. Rachel -----Original Message----- From: Jim Helfer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 11:23 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: OT: Autodesk Discussion List I have Netware severs for the file and print, so we take advantage of Netware's "Salvage" utility to take the burden off the restore tapes. You could upgrade to Netware!<g> IN A/E/C the project files get kept live for a long time, and often come back in the for of another related project or as a reference to a new idea. We've had a archiving procedure in place for some time that removes old projects, burns them to CD that are kept in the office, so they can be serached by employees. I'm expirimenting with a ftp site that I am keeping all the old projects on. People seem to like it, because it's easier to find old data, and they can do it from their desks. Have you been able to convince people that they don't need to keep all their file attachments in the Exchange store? That should help. Otherwise you are stuck with presenting the whole backup time/tape cost/recovery cost scenario with numbers to your boss. Make him make the choice. Jim -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rachel Pickens Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 11:31 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Autodesk Discussion List Thanks Jim, That is what I had thought. Until 1998 they had some sort of off brand tape drive, and no spare tape drive. When the tape drive died the data recovery company told him it would cost 20K per tape to recover. He decided not to pay and went to CD at the time. This is just eating more and more of my time and I have less and less time as the company grows. It was 40 people when I started and now we are up to 64, with more expected. Do your users need to access backups multiple times daily? Every where else I have worked getting into backups happened less than once a month. The other problem is that he won't archive. Projects stay on the server period. I have stuff on the server from 1996. rachel -----Original Message----- From: Jim Helfer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 10:01 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Autodesk Discussion List Did you tell him every has had a bad experience with tapes _at least_ once? I work for an architectural firm and the file sizes and quantities of files (it takes yeasr sometimes to build buildings, so projects stay live on the server for years!), are larger than anybody else I've heard of. Of course, all of those guys who make tapes and drives _say_ that there products are absolutely reliable, but nobody (in my price range, anyway) has been able to back that up. I just use DLT tapes (no loaders) with the simplest software I can get my hands on. That's wehre I've found my best reliability. Jim Helfer WTW Architects Pittsburgh PA -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rachel Pickens Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 4:24 PM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: OT: Autodesk Discussion List Can anyone recommend their favorite Autodesk newsgroup? Does anyone out there support Autodesk or a Civil Engineering or Architecture environment? I have to give the President in the company a reality check on the demands of the backup travesty he insists on, and would like to discuss best practices with someone. He had a bad experience with tapes once (1998) and refuses to even consider going back to it. I am having to backup 80G to DVD every month. (Don't panic, this is for file server only, I snuck in a tape drive for Exchange when I built it. He found out last month.) Thank you for your time. Rachel _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&; lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with. _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with. _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&; lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with. _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with. _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with. _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with. _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with. _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with. _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with. _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&; lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with. _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
