Hi, I'm sure this discussion is growing tiresome, so let's end it, once and for all. This will be my last posting on this subject for a while.
I answered Sean's message the way I did out of a sincere desire to help and offer real solutions. To me, that's what this list is about -- a support network. I'm sick of the rather obtuse, self-centered criticism of certain individuals that entreat those of us with registration problems to be "legal," but then don't offer any coherent, workable, actual solutions for doing so. Why don't you stop and consider that we're trying to do things the "legal" way, but we're stymied at every turn by the often contradictory, thoughtless and downright Kafka-esque Russian bureaucracy, and often have no other recourse than to pay an agency to paper things over, so to speak. This is only natural, as when in the Third Rome, do as the Third Romans do. As far as I'm concerned, you're either part of the solution, or you're part of the problem. And with this unseeing, callous cacophony, you only add to the problem by unduly annoying us, which makes you no better than the bureaucrats -- worse, in fact, since the bureaucrats have ostensibly good reasons for annoying us. Sincerely, Kirill. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 12:00:08 +0400 (MSD) Subject: Expat Digest, Vol 56, Issue 11 > Send Expat mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Expat digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. RE: Visa registration in Russia (ElectronintorgMrktg-SergeyOrlov) > 2. RE: business visa registration (ElectronintorgMrktg-SergeyOrlov) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 00:32:35 +0200 > From: "ElectronintorgMrktg-SergeyOrlov" <[email protected]> > Subject: RE: Expat List Visa registration in Russia > To: "'Kirill Galetski'" <[email protected]>, "'The Moscow Expat > List'" <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > > <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABv/92pocnvfvtzjtd7enlpcgaaaeaaaakjmotrwtptnughmtjtyomibaaaaa...@mail.ru> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" > > Kirill, > > Think you haven't got through the "hussles" of UK immigration since mid 80s, > and you never would, as you chose some sidekick ways to sort out your > personal visa issues, rather than go through the lengthy but wisdom way to > do legal booziness, and your choice for doing that is here. I mean, with the > attitide you have you may work out your expatriation in this country, but > not in an "educated" environment. > > If you ever be there for an employment you would see even more > discrimination. Not to say about customs ;) But, if you are employed in UK, > you may afford to spend some of the pounds to get a legal support, hopefully > or by the willingness to do that. I see you chose not to spend a penny in > Russia for doing good thingies. > > Over that, I would share experience that any kind of an entity working in > Russia tries to go an unusual and sidekick way. Why for the Lord noone here > does nothing to read the instructions from the FMS and be prepared to the > hussle? Why for the ack problems come out unexpectedly? > > There is nothing unusual but read the laws and especially the agrrement > between EU and Russia of 2007! Why for the ell we, Russians, have to obey > the rules, and some expats don't? > > You tell me that you have to go various ways to get registration, > bla-bla-bla - which of these was legal? Why you did not say thay you want to > be cleared off legally and not at your expenses... Who would protest that if > you are the king in media? (What I remember then is the TNK-BP quarrel). > > Why don't you come to Pokrovka 42? All Chinese are there and do things > quietly and every day. Why your company does not take responScibility of you > to help you there? > > The law is simple: the company you are employed with takes care of your > presence there at the legal adress, medical care, terms of your stay and > emigration if you violate the laws. If the company or you rents an apartment > for you to live in, then the company or your tenAnt provides the LEGAL > ADDRESS registration. Is this clear? > > Why should you chose the "cheap" or "inexpensive" way to get the penny saved > when you have to pay pounds (sovereigns) after to find a safe "escape"? Who > the ell tells you you may break through the rules, even laws? > > Never complain if you broke the rules. I remember one idiot straight after > the 1991 putch who decided to stay longer than the visa and said rules have > changed (wrongly) and he was arrested in S2 and stayed there two weeks until > we found him out and paid the fine and let him out. Even then, immigration > worked well despite all of the collapse in the system. Do you really want > not to be let in for 5 years? Now then, can you afford that? > > Please, take care, and never complain that your experience is bad. It was > wrong, and this is simply because you thought and still think corruption may > help you here... > > And, you still owe a drink to my sister who helped you. Give her a call at > least.. > > PS This was only my mersonal humble opinion resulting from the experience I > have from what I had and have still and this does not imply.... Whatever the > right words whould be there... I tried to speak out in simple language... > PPS I really don't know how to help, all my invited visitors, boozinessmen > and friends do receive my personal advises how to avoid "hussles" and... > bullocks, and I even give them the introductory lessons how to survive in > Moscow, Russia and especially in metro. > PPSS Sorry for mess, this was a sudden cry out, but really why noone does > take care before the problems come? > > Finally, I did want not to send this to the list... Then was my sudden > decision to do ;) > > Sincerely, > Sergey Orlov, > Marketing Director, > Electronintorg SP, > No telephones this time... > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kirill Galetski > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:17 AM > To: аСПЦУЮПДР дЩБХД юДЮЛ > Cc: The Moscow Expat List > Subject: Expat List Visa registration in Russia > > David, > > Ahhh, but if only life was so simple! In theory, what you say is the way it > should be, but this being Russia, in practice, it is not. I had been in > Russia "legally" the whole 10 years that I lived there, and I never had the > companies I was working for register me. > > The powers that be make it so much of a pain in the ass that most companies > don't bother. > > To give you two examples: > > Work visa: I used to work at a Russian news agency that is not the one you > work for and that will stay unnamed (at least in this public e-mail) and > even though this is a Russian resident legal entity, they employed their > foreigners through a subsidiary registered in the Isle of Man, so there was > no way to have the foreign employees registered through the company. > Everybody had to do it through their landlord, and this presented tremendous > problems for me, since my landlady lives in the U.S. She would visit Russia > every so often, but at inopportune times when I was already registered > through other channels. Visa agencies wouldn't register my visa since it was > a work visa, so I had to resort to some creative means to get myself > registered. I was then registered successfully. If you're interested in how > I did it, you can e-mail me off list, but the way I did it wouldn't work > under the current registration regime. > > Jouranlist visa: I then decided I'd had enough and went to get a journalist > visa through a trade magazine I was writing for, because I'd heard that > journalist visas were easier in terms of some things. > In terms of some things, they are, e.g. as a U.S. citizen you can still get > them at any Russian embassy, not just U.S. ones or select ones with hassles > (U.K., Ukraine). In terms of registration, it was easier, however, in order > for the company I was working for to register me, i.e. the trade magazine, > it had to have a legal presence (registration, an office) in Russia, which > this particular trade magazine did not -- I was its sole correspondent in > Russia. I had to find all this out piecemeal on my own, as my curator at the > foreign ministry press office didn't know jack shit, and I even had to pay a > 2000-ruble fine because of him, because he sent me to the migration service > foolishly conjecturing that they would register the visa (the foreign > ministry press office doesn't register their own bloody visas, go and > figure, and now I know that the migration service doesn't either) when they > said Op! You're unregistered, pay the fine! I then went to Go to Russia and > they registered my visa practically no questions asked, although the last > couple of times, they did so "so skripom" as they say in Russian. > > I don't know if this is still anything like the '90s, but I do know that a > good saying about Russia is the more things change, the more they stay the > same.The Russian legal environment still unfortunately makes doing many > things the legal way excrutiatingly difficult or impossible. > > All I can say, David, is thank your lucky stars that you never had the > hassles. A lot of people did and some still do. > > Kirill. > > E-mail: [email protected] > Home: +49 (0)30 67 92 58 58 > Office: +49 (0)30 28 87 58 72 > Mobile: +49 (0)152 23 66 68 96 > Skype: kirill.galetski > > -----Original Message----- > From: аСПЦУЮПДР дЩБХД юДЮЛ <[email protected]> > To: "Kirill Galetski" <[email protected]>,"The Moscow Expat List" > <[email protected]> > Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:48:38 +0400 > Subject: RE: Expat List business visa registration > > > The question always comes to mind...if you're here legally, then you don't > need to go through the hassle. Your company is obliged to register you, not > your landlady. I've lived here for 15 years and have never had to do mad > searches to live here legally. If you're here on business, then just do it > right...it's not the 90s any more folks! > > > > David Burghardt > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kirill > > Galetski > > Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 12:35 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Cc: [email protected] > > Subject: Expat List business visa registration > > > > Hi Sean, > > > > I used to have the same problem all the time when I lived in Russia. > > > > I know how it's still a pain in the ass to ask your Russian friends to > register you. > > > > I've used two different agencies to do registration of a business visa. > > > > Visa link were usually pretty good for registering business visas that > weren't initiated by them: > > > > http://www.visalink-russia.com/ > > > > I also used Go to Russia when my visa was not a business visa, but a > journalist visa initiated through the foreign ministry press office (which > Visalink couldn't register) : > > > > http://www.gotorussia.com/about_us_directions.htm > > > > Both agencies were reliable in handling the registration, and the fees > were 1400 rubles and 1800 rubles respectively when I did it. Could be more > now, so check directly with them before you go. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Kirill. > > > > Regards, > > Kirill Galetski, > > Russian-English, German-English translator. > > > > E-mail: [email protected] > > Home: +49 (0)30 67 92 58 58 > > Office: +49 (0)30 28 87 58 72 > > Mobile: +49 (0)152 23 66 68 96 > > Skype: kirill.galetski > > > > http://kirillgaletski.language123.com/ > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 3 > > > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 03:02:38 -0700 (PDT) > > > From: Sean McMeekin <[email protected]> > > > Subject: Expat List business visa registration? > > > To: [email protected] > > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know of an agency which will register a delovaia visa, no > questions asked? Last time I was in Moscow (2005) there was some quickie > agency which sprung up in the Tsentralnaia gostinitsa on Tverskaya to do > this, but apparently this old classic 'hotel' no longer exists. My issuing > agency is asking for a landlord declaration, etc., which I cannot really > get. > > > > > > I can always resort to asking one of several Russian friends to register > me personally as a guest at the post office or police, but I would rather > not ask for this sort of favor if I don't have to. All I need is for the > V'ezd card to be stamped. If anyone knows an agency which will do this, > please let me know. Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Expat mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat > > http://www.expat.ru/forum/ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Expat mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat > http://www.expat.ru/forum/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 00:42:32 +0200 > From: "ElectronintorgMrktg-SergeyOrlov" <[email protected]> > Subject: RE: Expat List business visa registration > To: "'The Moscow Expat List'" <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > > <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAABv/92pocnvfvtzjtd7enlpcgaaaeaaaaiy0s3dj2dnejmqhqvppwtsbaaaaa...@mail.ru> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" > > Massimo, > > Please read carefully the EU/Russia agreement. 90 days of 180 consecutive > days is the first rule, and 180 days of 365 consecutive days goes second. > This is done for tax reasons. Or, you have to calculate perfectly when and > where you have crossed the border, simirlarly for your country of origin. > > But, David, you are right, sweet times are in the past and your company or > you have to take care of your "registration", which overall means 13% extra > for your landlord to pay the taxes and some time to fill in the declaration. > Change the world! Go into the right contracts and stay secured, why don't > you? > > > Sincerely, > Sergey Orlov, > Marketing Director, > Electronintorg SP, > > Tel +7-499-1554635 > Tel +7-495-2280766 > Fax +7-495-7873869 > Mob +7-916-3929803 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of meccli > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 4:39 PM > To: The Moscow Expat List > Subject: Re: Expat List business visa registration > > David you are right. Now if you stay here for more than 180 days per year > you need to have a working VISA otherwise if you have a business VISA for > one year, you need to stay in Russia for 180 days, the rest of the days you > need to be out of the Russian Federation... Massimo > > аСПЦУЮПДР дЩБХД юДЮЛ wrote: > > The question always comes to mind...if you're here legally, then you don't > need to go through the hassle. Your company is obliged to register you, not > your landlady. I've lived here for 15 years and have never had to do mad > searches to live here legally. If you're here on business, then just do it > right...it's not the 90s any more folks! > > > > David Burghardt > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kirill > > Galetski > > Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 12:35 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Cc: [email protected] > > Subject: Expat List business visa registration > > > > Hi Sean, > > > > I used to have the same problem all the time when I lived in Russia. > > > > I know how it's still a pain in the ass to ask your Russian friends to > register you. > > > > I've used two different agencies to do registration of a business visa. > > > > Visa link were usually pretty good for registering business visas that > weren't initiated by them: > > > > http://www.visalink-russia.com/ > > > > I also used Go to Russia when my visa was not a business visa, but a > journalist visa initiated through the foreign ministry press office (which > Visalink couldn't register) : > > > > http://www.gotorussia.com/about_us_directions.htm > > > > Both agencies were reliable in handling the registration, and the fees > were 1400 rubles and 1800 rubles respectively when I did it. Could be more > now, so check directly with them before you go. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Kirill. > > > > Regards, > > Kirill Galetski, > > Russian-English, German-English translator. > > > > E-mail: [email protected] > > Home: +49 (0)30 67 92 58 58 > > Office: +49 (0)30 28 87 58 72 > > Mobile: +49 (0)152 23 66 68 96 > > Skype: kirill.galetski > > > > http://kirillgaletski.language123.com/ > > > > > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Message: 3 > >> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 03:02:38 -0700 (PDT) > >> From: Sean McMeekin <[email protected]> > >> Subject: Expat List business visa registration? > >> To: [email protected] > >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >> > >> > >> Does anyone know of an agency which will register a delovaia visa, no > questions asked? Last time I was in Moscow (2005) there was some quickie > agency which sprung up in the Tsentralnaia gostinitsa on Tverskaya to do > this, but apparently this old classic 'hotel' no longer exists. My issuing > agency is asking for a landlord declaration, etc., which I cannot really > get. > >> > >> I can always resort to asking one of several Russian friends to register > me personally as a guest at the post office or police, but I would rather > not ask for this sort of favor if I don't have to. All I need is for the > V'ezd card to be stamped. If anyone knows an agency which will do this, > please let me know. Thanks. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Expat mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat > > http://www.expat.ru/forum/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Expat mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat > > http://www.expat.ru/forum/ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Expat mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat > http://www.expat.ru/forum/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Expat mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat > > > End of Expat Digest, Vol 56, Issue 11 > ************************************* > E-mail: [email protected] Home: +49 (0)30 67 92 58 58 Office: +49 (0)30 28 87 58 72 Mobile: +49 (0)152 23 66 68 96 Дом.: +49 (0)30 67 92 58 58 Офис: +49 (0)30 28 87 58 72 Моб.: +49 (0)152 23 66 68 96 Skype: kirill.galetski _______________________________________________ Expat mailing list [email protected] http://www.lists.ru/mailman/listinfo/expat http://www.expat.ru/forum/
