Comment below:
**
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I like the idea that it is all the student when it comes to darshan,
> but for a different reason than MMY. I think it is an innate human
> capacity probably from our primate culture of dominance. Add to
this
> hours of waiting in states of meditation and boredom and you have a
> perfect formula for an amazing experience.
>
> I had plenty of "MMY as a source of something magical" experiences
> while in his presence, and plenty of him as a regular Indian man.
> Spending day after day in India with him was pretty telling. I
> remember when he came to a celebration with his loin cloth twisted
in
> a knot about something and really came off as the most UN-magical
> cranky old fart for the evening. It was surprising that the magic
was
> ALL gone that night. I just couldn't summon the experience for a
guy
> who was acting like a dad who had slipped on a carelessly placed
> skateboard on the way in, and was fuming about it.
>
> Hundreds of millions of people perceived Mao as a god. Lots of
> miracle stories about a guy who killed so many millions of people he
> is second behind Stalin. Did he have special shakti power? (Anyone
> who proposes that he did and it comes from an Asura or demon must
buy
> an indulgence from the Catholic Church like a saint's fingernail and
> send me the receipt before I will respond)
>
> Do all people who are experienced as giving darshan really have the
> power or is there something else at play here?
>
> I think the darshan experience is a fascinating part of our human
> nature, but the philosophy of what it all means from traditional
> sources is not informative. MMY can both be the focus of amazing
> personal experiences and at the same time another bag of flesh and
> bones like us once we understand that we create it ourselves for
> ourselves. You can experience your own power as if it is coming
from
> another person, but that isn't what I believe is going on. It is
the
> same in celebrity culture, rock star backstage parties and anytime a
> human looks up to another human. We are wired that way. Early on
> certain types of people learned how to exploit this experience to
help
> prop up the belief that they are intrinsically different in some way
> from you and I.
>
> Charisma is a kind of magic. But when people try to pawn it off as
> "radiating pure knowledge" or the power to enlighten others by their
> presence...they should read all about the magical darshan of Chuck
> Manson. His followers had amazing experiences of his personal
> "power", and they proved how strong that experience can be.
>
> It was a useful part of our programming when we had to spot the
leader
> of our troupe quickly, but it is a quality of human nature that
modern
> humans need to keep an eye on IMO.
>
>
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Some good points.
> >
> > On different responses to darshan, MMY made clear, at least from
his
> > side, and presumably he was pretty attuned to the dynamics of SBS'
> > darshan, if not of a much larger group, by tradition.
> >
> > {Paraphrasing} 'It all comes from the student.The student thinks
it
> > all comes from the teacher, but it is not so. The teacher is the
well
> > head. The water from the well flows in which ever way it is
tapped.
> > The well does nothing. Its all from the student. Like a golden
chain
> > is attached between teacher an student. And then everything
flows. The
> > teacher has nothing to do with the chain. Its all in the student.'
> > [this was a paraphrase not a direct quote.]
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bronte Baxter
> > <brontebaxter8@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Pretty darn good questions again, New Morning. I think the
various
> > experiences come from our varying expectations. I went to see
Amma,
> > got real close to her, didn't do the hug thing. I was never
impressed,
> > felt no dharshan. Yet a friend of mine swears by her -- the
dharshan
> > for him is intense. I read a newspaper reporter on Amma saying she
> > felt nothing particular from the hug. Yet others claim that hug
> > changed their lives.
> > >
> > > Remember the movie "Leap of Faith" where Steve Martin plays
the
> > phony faith healer? He was instrumental in an actual cure. The
> > crippled man sincerely believed in Steve Martin and in Christ and
had
> > an authenthic healing. This, in turn, caused the phony faith
healer
> > (who up til then had been a con-man and atheist) to change his
heart
> > and believe in something beyond what his senses could perceive.
> > >
> > > As far as dharshan goes, though, I don't count it as much. In
> > fact, I'm suspicious of it. I saw some videos George DeForest
linked
> > us to from this site, of David Spero, a guru, and there was little
> > doubt for me the guy is wired to something very powerful. Lots of
> > shakti, even coming through the computer screen. But what is that
> > energy, that shakti? Is it necessarily something benign? People
say
> > guru shakti zaps them into a transcendental state. At what
possible
> > cost? Who is it who's doing the zapping? Is it the Infinite One?
Could
> > it be a being from outside this dimension, using the human guru
as a
> > channel? If so, for malice or for good? Could the goal possibly
be to
> > devour human individuality, turning people into empty bone sacks?
Or
> > does that shakti really bring the spirit home to God?
> > >
> > > Yes, I know the traditional answers. But they were given us
by the
> > zappers. When you look at their lives, do those lives typically
> > demonstrate something we want, do they indicate people we can
trust
> > and respect? If our history with gurus shows we so rarely can
trust or
> > respect them, can we trust their answers about where their shakti
> > comes from and the effect it is having in our lives? I don't
trust any
> > of it. I consider the evidence, and draw my own conclusions.
> > >
> > > If a teacher is hooked up to shakti, and radiates it, that
simply
> > means they're connected to cosmic energy. Energy is only half of
the
> > consciousness/energy equation. What is the nature of their
> > consciousness? Is it nihilist, annihilating individuality? Is it
> > self-centered and sensual, having sex with young disciples? Is it
> > self-centered and greed-ridden?
> > >
> > > When such qualities are present, who cares if they have
shakti?
> > The devil himself has shakti, I'm sure, if such a person exists.
> > Shakti is just power. Hitler, for instance, had incredible
charisma.
> > Would he make a good guru?
> >
>
**end**
Curtis (et al.), fine stuff and, as per usual, issues raised that
both interest me and compel me to re-examine my own experiences and
assumptions.
Turq describes it best (IMO) as resonance. And his explanation of
resonance induced not only through interaction with another human
(whether guru, rock star, or Bill Clinton), but also with inanimate
objects (murtis, ritual objects, even natural phenomenon, perhaps,
like the aurora borealis or a mountain stream, etc.) is important,
too, and fits with what I believe you're saying above.
My time with Maharishi was limited and sporadic and I've only been
alone with him a few times, the longest maybe 10 minutes at the
most. Although I was awed to be in his presence those times, I never
got a big hit of darshan. The times I did was when I was with him in
group settings, some small, some big; however, when I got the hit it
was very powerful and unlike anything else. Shakti is the apt term.
But I've also gotten something like it, resonance seems exactly the
right word, in natural settings -- Death Valley most strongly -- and
in the presence of certain pieces of art. Something within me was
amplified and rareified (sp?) at the same time; it feels like
being "tuned" in the sense of tuning a musical intstrument.
One thing that Tom has talked about in the context of satsang is the
resonance within a group that is consciously communicating about
consciousness; that there is a stepping up of the vibration within a
group like that that expands one's own consciousness. And too, at
times it seems that some individuals got some hit or resonance off of
me (and without me doing anything consciously to provoke it). There
have been some interesting examples with a few clients and probably
most of us who formerly taught TM can relate to that experience, too.
Certainly the mindset (of the darshan receiver) and the setting are
factors which provide a fertile ground for the experience of a
purported saint's darshan. Most interesting to me would be the
occassion in which the darshan came from an unexpected source, i.e.,
one that neither the darshan receiver anticipated and was in no other
way elevated or singled out from the background as a 'possible' or
anticipatory source; in other words, not someone on stage or sitting
elevated on a dias, or behind a microphone covered in garlands, etc.
This would be the unprepossesing, humble saint type of darshan --
illumination radiating from someone shining bright in his or her own
effulgence. Has anyone ever experienced anything like that?
Thanks.
Marek
