--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Thank you, Judy, this is excellent and such a better expression of > what I was trying to write about in reply to t3rinity's post.
Thanks for your post Marek. I don't think any claim about what another person can or cannot experience could be valid. How could anyone know this? I certainly don't think that people who believe in God can't be rational people who have good reasons for the things they choose, or are limited in any other way. One of my goals in this discussion has been to make a case that as far apart as atheists and theists seem on that one issue (and for one version of God), they share much more humanity. I set myself up a bit making this point on a spiritual board where my POV has a high "cootie" factor. I was not trying to convince anyone that my POV is right or debate it's superiority (as Edg wants me to do) or try to argue that others should adapt it. But evaluating my capacities for love or passion for reality as limited seems to go against everything I value in other people's spiritual perspective. Spirituality may aspire to explain the ultimate reality of life, but at the very least I would expect it to be able to summon a good Kumbaya vibe around the human campfire. > > ** > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <no_reply@> wrote: > > <snip> > > An atheist may be in awe, but > > > basically (Unless he is a Buddhist or Taoist)he is just exploring > > > a kind of a metaphysical study. So he may be in awe, yes. But he > > > cannot LOVE reality as such, and he cannot develop a passion about > > > it. > > > > Boy, Michael, I don't think that's true. Some of > > the most passionate expressions of love for > > reality-as-such that I've ever encountered have > > come from atheists. > > > > One of my favorite passages is from the end of > > atheist physicist Heinz Pagels's "Cosmic Code," > > a book for the general reader about physics and > > quantum mechanics: > > > > "Science is not the enemy of humanity but one of the deepest > > expressions of the human desire to realize that vision of infinite > > knowledge. Science shows us that the visible world is neither > matter > > nor spirit; the visible world is the invisible organization of > > energy. I do not know what the future sentences of the cosmic code > > will be. But it seems certain that the recent human contact with > the > > invisible world of quanta and the vastness of the cosmos will shape > > the destiny of our species or whatever we may become. > > > > "I used to climb mountains in snow and ice, hanging onto the sides > of > > great rocks. I was describing one of my adventures to an older > friend > > once, and when I had finished he asked me, 'Why do you want to kill > > yourself?' I protested. I told him that the rewards I wanted were > of > > sight, of pleasure, of the thrill of pitting my body and my skills > > against nature. My friend replied, 'When you are as old as I am you > > will see that you are trying to kill yourself.' > > > > "I often dream about falling. Such dreams are commonplace to the > > ambitious or those who climb mountains. I dreamed I was clutching > at > > the face of a rock but it did not hold. Gravel gave way. I grasped > > for a shrub, but it pulled loose, and in cold terror I fell into > the > > abyss. Suddenly I realized that my fall was relative; there was no > > bottom and no end. A feeling of pleasure overcame me. I realized > that > > what I embody, the principle of life, cannot be destroyed. It is > > written into the cosmic code, the order of the universe. As I > > continued to fall in the dark void, embraced by the vault of the > > heavens, I sang to the beauty of the stars and made my peace with > the > > darkness." > > > > I don't think it gets much more passionate > > than that. > > > > There is a huge tragic irony in the last two > > paragraphs, however. Not long after this was > > written, Pagels died in a fall while mountain > > climbing. Not only does that make the dream > > rather eerie, but even more so the paragraph > > above it about mountain climbing involving a > > subconscious death wish. > > > > It's almost as if Pagels had become impatient > > with human progress toward the "infinite > > knowledge" he refers to in the first paragraph, > > and his subconscious mind had prodded him to > > "let go" of the struggle to climb the mountains > > of ignorance and instead experience directly his > > oneness with the order of the universe. > > >
