You make a very good point, but I have not been speaking about the specific informational content of education (which is a quantitative feature), but I have been speaking about it's quality. I agree completely, too, that practical education for most people is about getting and keeping good jobs, but the thrust of education in this country has been to create a two-class system of the rich and the poor. The middle class is vanishing, and a large measure of how that vanishing act is accomplished is through dumbing down the population. It should be a matter of concern to us if too many graduate students in any field (including English) have foreign accents. This was a feature in the fall of Rome as well. The Romans were partying, and the Greeks were doing their high level thinking for them. It is well-understood in the field of baseball that you can't have the major leagues without the sand lots. Educationally speaking, even our sand lots are vanishing.
Practical education is all most folks need, but there is a baseline in terms of fundamental language and mathematical skills that feeds into practical life. If a kid can't use a ruler to measure a distance, he won't be a good carpenter. If too many kids can't manage some basic knowledge of the world around them, a democracy will be impossible. And if you don't teach what a metaphor is, you will have a fundamentalist population. Even back in the days of Columbus the ruling class understood that language is the perfect means of empire. It was understood in ancient Greece as well. Language skills are fundamental to thinking skills even in the field of mathematics. The last time I talked to a high school English teacher in this country, it was with someone at MSAE. That person didn't know what syntax is. By one way of reckoning the grammatical system we use to teach English world-wide is at least sixty years out of date. By another way of reckoning, that same system is a proper eighteenth century construct on a par with Newtonian physics and a world view which holds that the universe is like a clock with God as an absentee clock-maker. It pretends that language is an external artifact instead of a cognitive act. Why are we still using it? My contention is that we are using it precisely because it is counter-productive. There is research since the nineties which shows overwhelmingly that children of Spanish-speaking parents learn English faster if they do just one thing: stay away from English teachers. Like syntax, metaphor is fundamental to all thinking skills---after all, a scientific model is a kind of metaphor. Metaphor is a natural component in the language of very young children and even in the language of primates who will use metaphor to extend vocabulary in just the same way the very sophisticated international writers did whom I taught at the University of Iowa. If our high school and college students can't understand and use metaphor, then that is because we have trained a natural ability out of them. a Duveyoung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: About 50 years ago Issac Asimov wrote an essay entitled something like: "Forget It." In it, he listed the kinds of information that a hundred years early was considered "vital" knowledge, and I was aghast at what kids were expected to memorize, back then, and feeling like I had dodged a bullet by being born in a later era where, you know, everything was "actually important to know." I never was required in elementary school to know that a hogshead was two barrels. There's no knowledge "set" that won't "date." I can hardly watch a movie over ten years old because the production standards are so antiquated -- like Curtis and Turq's complaining about the Beatles music being tailored to the fidelity of the AM radio speakers extant then. All our "ears" are being made evermore sophisticated by ordinary life's educational impact. Just so almost any knowledge taught in schools today is going to age rapidly in today's e-world. And don't forget Henry Ford. Henry was involved in a libel trial and had to testify in front of a jury with an incredibly hostile lawyer cross examining him whose purpose in life was to make a fool out of Henry. The lawyer took the tact that he'd show Henry was an uneducated bumpkin, and that he'd ask Henry questions that Henry wouldn't be able to answer. I cut and paste quote a googled-netizen's description of Henry's answer: "His response . . . was to testify or state that if he had a legal problem, he could push a button on his desk and several top Harvard Law School graduates would quickly enter his office to do his bidding....similarly, if he had an engineering problem...push another button and several MIT top grads would enter his office to assist with THAT problem, etc." (See: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=306615 ) Don't obscure the point by making Henry a straw dog -- Henry was a bastard of deep degree -- what with his union busting and his anti-semitism. The point is that the self-vaunted educated Harvard-type ilk are mere minions to those who are not interested in acquiring an encyclopedic acumen at one's ready, but are instead involved with the big questions of policy -- how to use that knowledge. (For his failings, Henry is a tainted hero, but read Buckminster Fuller description of Henry in "Nine Chains To The Moon." Henry really faced some evil forces-afoot, and empowered the ordinary worker with an astounding pay rate for the times -- allowing them to buy the very cars he was making. Not sure if his good out weighed his bad, but....) For most of my life, I've thought of an ivy league education as something attained in a romantic ashram where everyone was a scholar and seemed to be able to remember EVERYTHING -- Yamantaka in modern guise with a girdle of PhDs instead of a belt of skulls. But given that the haughty elitists are churning out such scholars on a regular basis and given that an evil dog like Bush can still ruin the country, of what use have these scholars been to America/world if they can not even stand up and be leaders -- make policy decisions instead of, you know, quoting the exact words of some poem by Ezra Pound that faintly applies to the discussion at hand? Don't get me wrong; I know tons of stuff too, and can impress most crowds with bon mots and be ever so contributive to the dialog -- I've never stopped studying since my undergrad work, but the sheer mass of knowledge I've acquired that is of utterly no use is a sour truth -- I've used my nervous system to do so much of such little consequence. But I can win at Trivial Pursuit, do crossword puzzles with my left foot, and do an impromptu stand-up routine that'll stop most parties in mid-gossip. That, and $3.50, and I get coffee. Think about all the facts that would go into a book entitled: "The Regis and Kelly Show 10-26-07." Imagine the work involved if some Harvard PhD candidate wanted to really do a complete outlaying of everything that that event required to manifest. What a tome it would be, eh? Hundreds of pages of iotas, asides, jargon, professional histories of guests, etc. Whew, anyone? Not me, but here's where I'm Henry Ford: I can push a button and up the stairs comes a woman who has awoken with a smile on her face every day of her life who will tell me the best jokes that Regis and Kelly said today. In fact she just did this and had me laughing instantly. (Jimmy Kimmel is guest hosting for Regis it could be quibbled, but feh!) See? There's knowledge, and then there's use of knowledge. I submit that a typical educated elitist has dropped the very ball that has been acquired with such immense effort and mastery. Let's face it, egg-heads are kept in the carton by the true leaders of society and are merely pulled out of the frig when, you know, keish is desired. Oh, it'll be the best keish with ever so many steaming savory chunkettes, but, most of us only need pizza and beer to dig 200 post holes while fencing-in the back 40. And where is even educational leadership? Here's all this precious knowledge, but it's not taught until post grad level. Precious knowledge ensconced in nervous systems so sharp they could be cut gems -- we've got these minds coming out of Harvard like frat party puke, but where is any child under 16 being taught that Israel is allowed by the US government to have nuclear weapons, and every president of America for decades has had that country on a leash like an attack dog straining to be set upon anything Arabic? Where is any child under 16 taught that Clinton fiddled while half a million Africans were hacked to death by BigOil's psychotically ferocious assassins? Where is any child under 16 taught that Harvard grads are all so chummy cuz they're all from the power-mongering, elitist, upper class families that raise their children to think that a telescope is needed in order to look down one's nose at blue-collar workers? Where is any child under 16 being taught that raping whole countries for their riches is a huge dynamic in the American psyche? Where is any child under 16 being taught to "follow the money to understand war?" And on and on this listing could go, right? Kids are taught almost NOTHING OF PRACTICAL IMPORT. Even Justice Thomas has griped about this. http://tinyurl.com/2zxym6 Hell, where are children anywhere being taught real practical daily life knowledge that could boot-strap their lives notches above their parents' lifestyles? Where is integrity and emotional honesty in relationships being taught? Where is "spiritual-good" in education today? Where is love, sweet truth, or tolerance taught? In what classroom in America are photos of the carnage of bombed innocents shown? Don't tell me educated persons are of much worth in this world. They're bought and paid for and, worse, use their large brains to rationalize their employment. Follow the money. That'll educate ya better than anything Ezra wrote. Edg --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I don't know what Jesus has got to do with it, and I can't make much > sense of this post. I have no idea what the following sentence is > supposed to mean: "Where did I say that a clear river, for example, > the river clear as glass that educated my grandfather wasn't the best > schooling a man can have?" > > And by the way, it's "dumber," not "dummer." > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander > <mailander111@> wrote: > > > > Jesus Christ. They guy either told the truth: American kids are > dummer than dirt, or he didn't. If it's true, then we have better > things to do than to engage in pissing contests on a personal level. > Then there are serious questions to ask about that. Plus, once again, > you're not reading what I actually said. Where did I say that a clear > river, for example, the river clear as glass that educated my > grandfather wasn't the best schooling a man can have? You are > imputing motives to my statements that I do not have. If what the guy > said is true, and I believe that it is true from my perspective as a > professional in the field of education, then, as I suggested earlier, > we are all embedded in it including the folks in Ff. The forest is > green, remember, because every leaf of every tree is green. Why are > you taking that personally? a > > > > > > feste37 <feste37@> wrote: Every > generation that has ever lived has complained about the younger > > generation, but what young people need to know changes from generation > > to generation. Has it ever occurred to you that the young people today > > do not necessarily need to know everything that you learned so long > > ago, and that they may know things that you are entirely ignorant of? > > > > And as far as brilliance is concerned, I wasn't talking about > > illiterates. These were very well educated young people. I'm sorry you > > appear to have had such little luck in finding high-quality students > > to benefit from your great wisdom and knowledge. > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander > > <mailander111@> wrote: > > > > > > Of course there are brilliant students, but that doesn't mean > > they've had an education. I met brilliant illiterates all over the > > world. They're illiterate, not stupid. Get the difference? I don't > > have a particularly low opinion of most of the members, but somebody > > posted something about the educational level in the U.S. generally, > > and I have to agree that it is abysmal. Europe is deteriorating too, > > but not as fast. > > > One Ph.D. from the University of Iowa, one from Kent State. My > > profs wanted me to go to Harvard, and I was accepted, by my husband > > didn't want to go there. > > > > > > And th > > > > > > feste37 <feste37@> wrote: You must > > have taught at some lousy colleges. I have taught at high > > > school, undergraduate and graduate level and have been fortunate > > > enough to have had some brilliant students. In the words of The Who, > > > "The kids are all right!" > > > > > > I wonder why you deign to contribute to this list since you have > such > > > a low opinion of the educational attainments of its members. > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander > > > <mailander111@> wrote: > > > > > > My career has been unusual because I've taught at every level of > > > instruction from preschool through graduate school. I have NEVER > > > taught anything at the undergraduate level in college that shouldn't > > > have been covered by eighth grade. > > > > > > > > I hate to say this, but the low level of education is felt > > > EVERYWHERE in America, including Ff, including this group. a > > > > > > > > > > > Bhairitu <noozguru@> wrote: > > > Warning: The next generation might just be the biggest pile of > > idiots in > > > > U.S. history > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2007/10/24/notes102407.DTL > > > > > > > > (Would be FFL "columnists" would do well to study how Morford's > > > writing > > > > style can carry you forward like butter instead of looking over > > at the > > > > pane slider to see how much more you have to read). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends > > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
