--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hugo/Sal, > > You know, if you two are so bent out of shape emotionally such that > you're deriding me for having delusions and for having fears of being > alone in the cosmos and then to amplify your error you come back at > the scientific facts I've presented with sheer prejudice and > chauvinism for your own kiddiebrained certainties, then you're not > worth my trying to educate you. > > Or to put into better words: fuck you. > > The below is some of the worst "conclusioning" I've ever run across > from people who seemingly have read enough and are smart enough and > should know better than to say the things below. > > I've read extensively about the possibilities of life in the universe > -- I read up to an hour a day about it, and both of you are so far off > from what science is saying that, frankly, you should just fucking > shut up about it or you're going to get a lot of folks avoiding you in > the future because of outrageously ill-considered opinions that go > against fact. > > My post only touched the surface of the complexities, and for either > of you to use the concept "Fermi's Paradox" with such a twisted > comprehension of its true "heft in science circles," is pathetic -- > "childlike understanding" would be the best summation I could choke > out for you two. > > What next? You two going to tell us what to do about Global Warming, > the housing credit crisis, Iraq, etc.? Believe me -- those are far > easier realms to master than astronomy. > > You two are the most thirsty horses I've ever led to a trough, and > true to the adage, I can't make you drink. > > Must be a bliss addiction for you two, right? > > Ignorance being bliss that is. > > Edg > PS Next time try not being snarky, and you might get me to work up an > education for you about astronomy -- all your assertions below can be > easily countered or shown to be merely one-aspect of a huge set of > possibilities, but that would take some time to create the paragraphs, > the links, etc. to clearly show your errors. But snarky pissants > don't deserve the benefit of my scholarship -- uncredentialed that it is. >
Bent out of shape emotionally? snarky? Ill considered opinions that go against fact? Is there some projection going on here Edg? > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "hugheshugo" > <richardhughes103@> wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > Hugo/Sal, > > > > > > Tsk tsk tsk. > > > > > > You two -- can't turn my back and look what you've gotten into! > > > > > > "hugheshugo" wrote: snip "if there were loads of creatures like > > us on > > > all possible planets I would think we would have been visited by > > now or > > > at least have picked up some radio signal. We appear to be alone. > > snip > > > Of course, the ancient astrologers who invented this stuff didn't > > know > > > about anything beyond the orbit of saturn because it isn't visible > > to > > > the naked eye." > > > > > > Sal Sunshine wrote: snip "Can't remember exactly what I heard on > > TV a > > > while back, but it brought home to me like nothing had before that > > there > > > is almost without question no other life in the universe. We Are > > It, > > > and that's that. snip In fact, we weren't even supposed to appear, > > as > > > the universe in general seems to be kind of a hostile place for > > almost > > > any kind of intelligent life (which might explain why we're here)." > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edg: Please believe me, I'm only correcting you for your own good - > > - > > > cuz, the above opinions will produce LOL in any venue where > > astronomy is > > > discussed. > > > > I think not, In fact I know not. I reckon Sal is talking about the > > Fermi paradox, which states that if life was common in the universe > > it would be obvious, we would have been visited. Which sounds absurd > > on first glance but is actually very solidly thought out. With the > > sheer number and age of stars in our galaxy, it would take one > > civilisation like ours only a few million years to settle everywhere. > > And when they visit it would be big-time not just a UFO dropping in > > for half an hour. If they were like us, they would need to dig half > > the planet up to get enough fuel to move on. Do I believe it? No, I > > think there could be many variables that keep people planet bound. > > But given there are some 200 billion stars in our galaxy you've gotta > > admit it's awfuly quite. > > > > Besides, in my post I don't say I doubt there is any life, just > > humanoid life like ours. I'm a "goldilocks" as far as aliens are > > concerned, everything has to be just right. The main requirement for > > life is water which requires a certain and stable temperature, which > > will rule out many planets as they will all need to be the same > > distance relatively speaking from their parent star. > > > > Sure, many scientists have theorised that life could be made from > > silicon, but not much else I'm afraid, as any definition of life > > seems to involve complex molecules which will always start evolving > > from an incredibly simple state and take time to generate complexity. > > Can you think of any other sort? It's no coincidence we are made from > > carbon, oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen as they are the four most > > common re-active elements in the universe and it's pretty much all > > there is to make life out of, only carbon can produce such complex > > molecules as we are made from and everything else is so rare. > > > > The main trouble with the "life could be everywhere and made out of > > anything creed" is if that's the case why isn't there anything else > > in our solar system? there are plenty of planets but, lets face it, > > the earth is the only place we know of where life has started and > > survived. Everywhere else is deader than disco. > > > > > > > The basic chemical "laws" of the universe seem to be > > extraordinarily set > > > up to produce life. > > > > > > Of course they are, if they weren't we wouldn't be here! > > > > > > Even the most "empty" places in the vastness of > > > space show us organic chemical signatures. Even Mars is outgassing > > > methane more than it should, and bacterial life is a chief > > suspect. And > > > there's 400,000,000 (a real number) estimated earth-type planets in > > our > > > galaxy alone, and there's hundreds of billions of galaxies, that all > > > adds up to, ready for it? -- 10,000,000,000,000,000 planets > > estimated in > > > the whole known universe. > > > > The question remains, where is everybody? > > > > > > > The above paragraph is pure science with oodles of documentation > > over > > > decades by the smartest folks on earth. They gots the facts! > > > > > > I know, it's why I read their books. It seems to me there is us > > goldilocksers and the "life is everywhere and we may not even know it > > as life" crowd. I say show me the evidence there must be some in our > > solar system if it's that common. The last place we are looking is > > Europa, one of the gallilean moons of jupiter, it may have a warm > > sea, under it's icy crust, but then we are back to earth-like > > environments. > > > > > > > > > > Life on Earth evolved in three different ways -- any one of which > > could > > > have populated our planet eventually. There are bacteria living in > > an > > > under-"ground" lake two miles under Anartica's icecap -- the water > > there > > > is under so much pressure that it stays liquid even below the > > freezing > > > point and those bacteria are basking in the environment. Martian > > > meteorites found on Earth suggest ancient bacterial forms. All > > kinds of > > > fauna evolved to live in the ocean depths around volcanic vent holes > > > where the water is 700 degrees. Bacteria are found in acid, in > > brines, > > > inside rocks, inside dust in the outer atmosphere, and there's > > several > > > places in our solar system where Earth bacteria could easily live -- > > on > > > the moons of the gas giants and on the millions of hunks of space > > debris > > > in our system where temperatures can get almost to absolute zero. > > > > > > As for why we haven't been visited yet, phihhhh!, we might have > > already > > > been visited and not even know it. With today's nanatechnology, > > even we > > > humans are now about to build machines so small they can't be seen > > that > > > are robots that can think and move. In the dust in our atmosphere > > there > > > might be just such machines raining down on us and sending reports > > back > > > to whatever aliens sent them. Our very DNA might have been > > purposefully > > > seeded here on Earth by aliens -- there's a neat theory that life > > > started on Mars and splashed off it onto Earth. > > > > The mars to earth theory is a possibility as their are plenty of > > martian rocks on earth. It is really only considered because life on > > earth started so quickly it seems almost suspicious. Mars would have > > been warm enough for life earlier than earth and therefore we might > > have got a toe-hold there. But it's all speculation we don't really > > know yet. But the DNA seeding theory seems like just pushing the > > blame somewhere else without really engaging, it doesn't answer any > > questions. > > > > True we may have a nano-engineered intestellar styarship orbiting the > > earth at the moment. But the point is with so many possible planets > > at least some aliens would have only reached our level of technology > > before setting off to explore. Until we meet some we won't know. > > > > We don't know the variables, all we can do is speculate, so far the > > clever money is on carbon-based life, it's all scientist are looking > > for when they scan other stars for planets, we want life like us > > because at least we KNOW that exists. Frankly, I'd be happy knowing > > that there is anything out there at all. > > > > > > The kinds of messages > > > we can imagine being sent to us are not merely using radio -- > > there's a > > > ton of other ways that messages could be sent across space -- some > > of > > > them incredible -- like moving whole stars to form a pattern. > > > > > > The film, Contact, only touched the surface of the kinds of knots > > that > > > must be unraveled in order to determine if any radiation from space > > > contains a message or not. The message just may not be obvious to > > us -- > > > yet -- and when we invent more subtle technology here, suddenly, > > there's > > > the message. > > > > The aliens in contact (one of my favourite books) used the hydrogen > > band to transmit a radio message. Any race smart enough to work that > > out would use it, stands to reason. But there could be any number of > > laser messages being sent straight at us. We'll work it out, new deas > > are being put to the test. > > > > I always thought the SETI experiment was the most optimistic idea, > > imagine the chances of an intelligent species having a radio > > telescope at the same time as us! I also wonder if they are like us > > and only listen instead of sending because a reply would take too > > long to get back. > > > > But I love the fact we try, and will keep trying because nothing > > would be more amazing, I think so anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > Faster than light travel has not been established as possible, > > > > > > It has actually been established as completely impossible, to > > accelerate a single piece of matter to light speed would require > > using the entire universe as fuel. See Albert Einstein for further > > details. > > > > > > so at > > > less than light speed, the distances to the stars require thousands > > of > > > years of space travel to get to them -- we'll be sending robots to > > the > > > stars for a CENTURY OR MORE before any human transport to even the > > > short-hop-away outskirts of our solar system is seriously > > considered. > > > > > > And there's a very long list of reasons why the aliens would refrain > > > from contacting us -- we could be their zoo, for instance, or some > > sort > > > of Trek Prime Directive prevents contact, or we're still ants to > > their > > > godlike qualities, etc. > > > > > > So, hey, start reading, eh! > > > > > > If there's a book on exobiology I haven't read I'll find it and start > > immediately. > > > > > > I suggest you read at > > > http://www.centauri-dreams.org/ -- most of the posters there have > > PhDs > > > and yet they produce some very readable short posts that inform > > about > > > the latest discoveries. > > > > > > So, you two okay now? Thinking bigger? > > > > Always trying. > > > > > > > Edg > > > PS Saturn is easily visible to the naked eye. > > > > I never said it wasn't, just the planets beyond. > > >
