--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <no_re...@...> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "yifuxero" <yifuxero@> wrote: > > > > --In other words, mind is a secondary witness to Witnessing; > > a fact even the Neo-Advaitins can't deny. (some mind-entity - > > illusory or not - is making various claims). What is the value > > of having those experiences.? > > That is the question that no one asks, because > they have already been presented with (and bought > hook, line, and sinker) the dogma that achieving > this witnessing state is the highest point of > human evolution, something that "should" be > achieved. > > If they had NOT been presented with that view, > it would have no value to them at all. > > And it's not even that hard to achieve. Based on > reports of people who practiced techniques of > lucid dreaming ( "waking up in your dreams," to > the point of being able to control them ), after > only a few months pretty much everyone I was > working with reported being able to witness not > only their dreams, but deep sleep as well. > > These were people who have never meditated in > their lives, and they could "witness" by performing > a few simple exercises before sleep, and during > it. To them, being able to "witness" their dreams > or deep sleep is small potatoes, nothing to get > excited about or value in itself. The point of > lucid dreaming is to be able to fully control > your dreams, and manifest anything you want in > them, visit anyone you want to visit, stuff like > that. > > They laughed with me when I told them that some > people think that developing the "witness" thing > was a big deal.
Thinking back to recent discussions about dreaming here, and the obvious fact that no one involved in that discussion had ever practiced lucid dreaming, I realize that I should explain a little more about it. It is non-meditative in nature, and involves simple mental and physical practices with the goal of awakening in one's dreams and learn- ing to control them. There is no goal of "enlightenment" or anything like that in mind. That said, the thing that I have heard people on this forum describe as "witnessing" of dreams and/or deep sleep is viewed in lucid dreaming circles as a preliminary step. It can be easily achieved by almost everyone, within a month or two of doing their exercises. But *in their view* (which I am not trying to elevate or glorify or defend, merely to explain), mere passive witnessing of dreams is *not the point*. In their view, the *next step* after developing this witnessing aspect of dreaming is *waking up in the dream*, being able to take an active (as opposed to passive witness) role in them, and direct them. Sample exercises that lucid dreamers practice while learning how to do this all tend to involve *intention*. Once the "witness" thing is a given, you decide before sleeping to *do* something to alter the course of the dream. You might try to find your hands (many will recognize this from Castaneda), or travel to a particular place, or remember to say a certain phrase. If you can do that, it has a kind of "snap" effect, and snap! you are awake in the dream. At that point you can go anywhere and do anything you want. Once one has gotten to this point, other exer- cises can be done, and in a group. For example, the group of students can agree to "meet" in a predetermined place in the dream. Once there, they can experiment with telling each other things or doing things that they can then check on with the other students in the waking state, to see if the other person experienced the same thing you did when "talking" to them or interacting with them in the dream. It's a real trip, lemme tell you. I studied lucid dreaming with Rama, and then on my own from books, and then later in a group of people who were interested in the phenomenon, and were working with a Yaqui teacher in Santa Fe to master it. It was way fun, and I got fairly good at it. But, to be honest, after a few months it lost its charm and I didn't continue it. Now it's like I have the "option" to wake up in my dreams if I want, but most of the time I don't, and just let what happens happen. I'm bringing it up just to make the point that "witnessing" does not mean the same thing or have the same value to all spiritual seekers. In the TMO, it is often viewed as a goal, or a "symptom" of enlightenment. Among this group of lucid dreamers I worked with, it was clearly viewed as a preliminary step, one that was a stepping stone to more interesting things. It's all POV. Sometimes it's good to consider the possibility that the POV you've been taught is "highest" may not be.
