--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@...> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote: > <snip> > > Plus, as much of a TB I might ever have been behind > > TM, it's good to be reminded that there are levels > > of denial and TB-dom that I never ventured into, or > > even got close to. I may have parroted dogma that I > > knew intuitively was bullshit, but I never lied > > outright about anything I had seen, or about policies > > that I knew were official-but-in-the-closet and which > > the TMO claimed didn't even exist. At my worst, I > > "tuned these things out," telling myself the way > > many here still do that "the ends justify the means." > > > > They don't. The means ARE the end. Intent, and the > > stories one tells oneself and others about the "why" > > one does what one does don't mean shit, and have > > nothing whatsoever to do with karma, and the karmic > > return on one's actions. It's what you DO, not what > > you say about what you do.
You know, I have been thinking about this discussion the last few days. For me, having had the darshan experiences and the other wonderful experiences just from doing TM (and some before TM) - they are all so significant in my life. I am very grateful, if that is the proper word, to MMY for having a big part in turning me toward spirituality, opening me to these experiences. Earlier I said I would not have gotten involved in TM back in 1970 had I known in advance about the sex and money stuff. That's true and that is part of the real sadness of these guru types who engage in bad behavior - they make people cynical about life and spirituality. But I am honestly glad I did not know it all then, that I got a chance for a few years to have these experiences and others. So, without knowing the dark side of the means, I am really glad I got some of the Ends. This raises an interesting question not only for us but for all spiritual folk who actually do benefit incredibly from their meditations and traditions - Buddhists, Hindu, whatever. Was it worth it even with the money and sex and lying and the cognitive dissonance? I don't think it is an ends vs. the means question. But if you could be enlightened by being around and soaking up the darshan (or having it triggered by your own belief) of a master who also had some dark side crap - would you do it? Would you go for the Enlightenment and ignore the dark? Would you keep looking for the Enlightenment experience from a Perfect Master or give up on gurus, what? IMO, I don't think there are perfect people, even gurus. Barry, was Rama/Lenz something you are glad you experienced? Was it a waste of time, a negative thing, or do you think it is an important part of your life? What about TM? > > If so, then what about the hundreds of outright lies > you've told on this forum about the people here you > don't like, TMers in particular? > > Obviously you've told yourself some kind of "ends- > justify-the-means" story about why it's OK for you > to tell these lies. > > According to what you've just said above, that > you've given yourself an excuse for telling the lies > doesn't mitigate the karmic consequences of doing so. > > Don't you worry about the "karmic return" from having > actually told the lies? >
