--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Buck" <dhamiltony2k5@...> wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" <curtisdeltablues@> > wrote: > > > > > > -- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Buck" <dhamiltony2k5@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Curtis, > > <Word of mouth can work.> > > > > To spread misinformation as well as good information. As social creatures > > we are inordinately swayed in our beliefs by this. > > > > <Acupuncture, network-chiropractic, cranial-sacral are three > > credentialed disciplines that deal with the subtle energies and might > > be helpful to meditators having troubles with their subtle systems. > > These disciplines certainly are about the subtle system and are progressed > > from > > faith-healing to the point where they are offered in hospitals, get doctor's > > referral and some insurance coverage now.> > > > > > > Interesting point about the growth of science. How do we test new ideas > > and sort them out from ideas that are bad ones. Not a clean process. > > > > > > <Is work in process. > > It seems chakras are coming. Trivedi and John Douglas are both > > getting themselves studied to the end of showing people > > like you who are poor in experience with it and slow to accept that there > > is a > > reality there which other people do experience.> > > > > Are you aware that people can believe they are experiencing things that are > > in fact imagined? Do you take all faith healers at face value? If you > > don't buy someone's claim do you believe you are just "poor in experience"? > > You are making these evaluations just as I am Doug. You are deciding that > > some ideas are better or more substantiated than others. We may just be > > coming from a different standard of what we leave in or what we take out. > > The kind of experience you are talking about is highly overrated IMO. > > > > > > <This evidently is work in progress within science. > > People certainly are using chakra energy work with good result. > > There is a reality to that. Word-of-mouth as, "subtle energy work" makes > > for a > > consumer's report until there is accreditation.> > > > > Yes anecdotal evidence is compelling to those uneducated to its > > psycological sway over its epistemological validity. Big problem in > > advancing our knowledge. We suck at evaluating claims and tend to > > overestimate our ability to do so. It is as big a problem for me as it is > > for you. > > > > > > <A couple years ago at an academic science research conference Janet Sussman > > http://www.timeportalpubs.com/about.htm gave a presentation on chakras. A > > brain researcher there measured and collected her while she did her energy > > work > > and it pegged the meters. Academically this is the work this guy is doing , > > measuring 'healers'. Evidently there is a reality there by experience. > > Science > > is catching up. Credentials likely will come in time.> > > > > Why give any value to the process of science if you are not going to > > actually evaluate claims in light of the most obvious principles? You seem > > content to use it if it appears to support a belief, but unwilling to use > > it if it reveals your actual lack of support of beliefs. > > > > "dents in the energetic bodies" I'm gunna leave it at that. > > > > > > < MUM does > > not have to endorse them. People can certainly check them out. However, by > > experience it could be very useful to some meditators. An affliction with > > meditators can be that while their mental fields are opened they are not > > necessarily open or connected at all in their body energy fields. It makes > > for > > a tough dis-integrated receptacle to have spiritual experience in generally. > > There's a reality to that.>
MUM is a lot about meditating. Evidently beyond checking meditations they could stand to be helpful otherwise too. > > > > Not by just asserting it as true as you are doing. I get the appeal of > > anecdotal evidence within a small community. I am subject to this > > influence too. We need to study how it impedes our quest for truth if we > > are sincere. We need to be ready to be wrong a lot about things that FEEL > > sooo right. > > > > > > <Some people can be very helpful (knowledgeable) with this kind of problem > > and > > have a lot of experience with it in the different ways it manifests.> > > > > > > We are obviously working from a different choice of proof systems. While > > you view me as "poor in experience" I view you as using science as a > > convenience to add credibility to claims without really respecting its > > methods. Fair enough at least we are chatting about those differences. > > > > Curtis, that's nice. Actually there are folks in life here who have > apprenticed and done long time of experience in this very work. > It's not just the maha-saints and healers coming around like > Mother Meera, Ammachi, Karunamayi, John Douglas, Trivedi, others coming > through and such. > In arguing against it, could you let your own (limited) epistemology hang > other people up > from the experience of getting help with their own spiritual experience? > Would there be a time to cowboy up yourself if you'd be open to it (?). May > be even leave your personal epistemologic strictures to experience more > differently? On the recommendation, of a friend? > > Anecdotal-ly, > > Janet Sussman is one who was here in Fairfield quietly doing her work > in the meditating community for decades. She has recently move to be > nearer her family. She had quite a practice satsang during the years she > lived here. It was way spiritual this way in experience. Rick interviewed > her more recently on batgap.com > > Her own web page is: http://www.timeportalpubs.com/ > > Rick's interview with Janet Sussman on batgap: > http://batgap.com/janet-sussman/ > > > Connie Huebner is another here long in experience doing this work. > www.divineMotherOnline.net > > My wife by virtue of both life experience and apprenticing in it works full > time in this too. > https://sites.google.com/site/jenniferhamiltonchakrapracik/ > > These three, for instance, are busy full time with people coast to coast and > internationally. There are others in Fairfield and elsewhere who evidently > are quite good at this spiritual work too. 'the architecture of the subtle > bodies'. It's a phenomena seemingly that has its reality for people. > > In a modern world the science is only catching up while the internet is > rapidly networking people's experience with it. Spirituality in its > revealing way is proly way more widely spread now because of pervasive > communication and social networking in this modern era than ever before. Its > proly harder than ever before to remain epistemological-ly parochial and > stuck than ever before too. 10 percent of Americans have learned to > meditate? It's a different world and evidently it is way more than just > transcending in meditation and proly way beyond religious institutions as > such. In experience with discernment it is good. It takes some discipline > too. It all can take some doing along the way and these 'intuitive counselor' > people can have a place in helping. Hasten the day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These points are interesting to me. There are two places > > > > > > > > to start that end in the same conclusion for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. You believe that "chakra energy" experiences are real, > > > > > > > > valuable and can be distinguished from the possible mental > > > > > > > > disorders in a patient who has studied these concepts and > > > > > > > > describes his or her symptoms using the vocabulary from > > > > > > > > this belief system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. You don't believe that this category of experiences is > > > > > > > > a sign of valuable "spiritual progress" and is a > > > > > > > > manifestation of a mental disorder or perhaps for some > > > > > > > > people a benign experience that we do not yet understand. > > > > > > > > (Not accepting the often contradictory explanations found > > > > > > > > in scriptures.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > False dichotomy. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wasn't presenting them as a dichotomy but as a place to > > > > > > start the discussion. > > > > > > > > > > As a place to start the discussion, it's inadequate > > > > > because it leaves out a major perspective. > > > > > > > > Thus the term "start". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's a whole field of psychotherapy > > > > > > > in which chakra experiences are used to help diagnose > > > > > > > various disorders (not necessarily mental illness per > > > > > > > se, but the kinds of emotional problems that most people > > > > > > > seek psychotherapy for), and working with chakras is used > > > > > > > as a treatment modality for the disorders, typically > > > > > > > along with standard psychotherapy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So these are licensed mental health professionals who > > > > > > are using this model in their practice or spiritual > > > > > > people with psychotherapy training? > > > > > > > > > > I haven't checked their credentials, Curtis. I got the > > > > > impression at least some of them were trained in > > > > > psychotherapy and licensed and have chosen to use this > > > > > approach in their practice. > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder about the ethics if the first > > > > > > > > > > OMG, that is hilarious. > > > > > > > > People whose trust by the public is based on their credentials > > > > certified by the state as a mental health authority adding in a field > > > > of speculation that has no oversight or even standard definitions is a > > > > violation of the ethical trust their position holds. How you find this > > > > funny is beyond me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and the training basis for the second. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The two systems are seen as complementary, in other words. > > > > > > > The chakra experiences are assumed to be very real but can > > > > > > > be signs of mental disorders if they're causing distress, > > > > > > > but also of spiritual progress if they're not. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can understand that some people may believe this. I am > > > > > > not sure they are speaking with the full authority of the > > > > > > people who license mental health professionals. > > > > > > > > > > As is this. > > > > > > > > > > And how > > > > > > does a person know that they are dealing with an expert > > > > > > in the area of "chakras"? There is no standard of > > > > > > knowledge to use as a reference. > > > > > > > > > > > > So I don't see how this solves the issues I brought up. > > > > > > > > > > I don't believe I suggested that it "solves" anything. > > > > > Please don't put words in my mouth. > > > > > > > > Creating a combative perspective out of nothing. > > > > > > > > Well at least you got to use an "OMG". That must have been satisfying > > > > for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are still left winging it with an area that seems to have > > > > > profound consequences in mental health. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you have a person who from your search seems to represent the > > > > > needed knowledge in both areas that you think would inspire > > > > > confidence? I don't doubt that a search will lead to plenty of > > > > > people making such claims. How could we evaluate such claims of > > > > > this specialized knowledge? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Curtis, > > > Word of mouth can work. > > > > > > Acupuncture, network-chiropractic, cranial-sacral are three > > > credentialed disciplines that deal with the subtle energies and might > > > be helpful to meditators having troubles with their subtle systems. > > > These disciplines certainly are about the subtle system and are > > > progressed from faith-healing to the point where they are offered in > > > hospitals, get doctor's referral and some insurance coverage now. > > > > > > Is work in process. > > > It seems chakras are coming. Trivedi and John Douglas are both > > > getting themselves studied to the end of showing people > > > like you who are poor in experience with it and slow to accept that there > > > is a reality there which other people do experience. > > > > > > This evidently is work in progress within science. > > > People certainly are using chakra energy work with good result. > > > There is a reality to that. Word-of-mouth as, "subtle energy work" makes > > > for a consumer's report until there is accreditation. > > > > > > A couple years ago at an academic science research conference Janet > > > Sussman http://www.timeportalpubs.com/about.htm gave a presentation on > > > chakras. A brain researcher there measured and collected her while she > > > did her energy work and it pegged the meters. Academically this is the > > > work this guy is doing , measuring 'healers'. Evidently there is a > > > reality there by experience. Science is catching up. Credentials likely > > > will come in time. > > > > > > It seems that some people could want help and in the meantime, MUM could > > > suggest a list of people who seem helpful with dents in the energetic > > > bodies. MUM does not have to endorse them. People can certainly check > > > them out. However, by experience it could be very useful to some > > > meditators. An affliction with meditators can be that while their mental > > > fields are opened they are not necessarily open or connected at all in > > > their body energy fields. It makes for a tough dis-integrated > > > receptacle to have spiritual experience in generally. There's a reality > > > to that. > > > > > > Some people can be very helpful (knowledgeable) with this kind of problem > > > and have a lot of experience with it in the different ways it manifests. > > > > > >
