--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb <no_reply@...> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "seventhray1" steve.sundur@ wrote: > > > > I look at various spiritual teachers, and conclude that they do > > operate in a different mode, and have indeed accessed different > > levels of awareness. > > I have no problem with many people, including myself, > having accessed (either briefly or permanently) "different > levels of awareness." I have seen absolutely no indication > that these are anything BUT different levels of subjective > awareness; that is, I have seen no indication that they > improve any "operating" in the real world. Speaking from my experience, I have noticed greater support from environment. As for "full time" teachers or "gurus" who appear to have "arrived", I see their role as one to help guide and inspire others who may choose a similiar path.spiritual teachers, they serve as > > And I say mostly from my own experiences. > > I'd love to know what experiences lead you to believe that > the teachers you're referring to "operate in a different > mode." I have found the insights and experiences which they have recorded in books or video to be indicative of "higher states of consciousness" or awareness. If you want some objective criteria, I cannot provide it. There are many things I believe, that I cannot verify objectively. I believe that the neighbors dog who I pet every day and to whom I give table scraps is very fond of me. But I cannot prove that objectively. And I am okay with that, and numerous other examples like it. I would go so far as to say all of us operate in this way to a greater or lesser extent. > > And I don't follow a teacher per se. But I have been influenced > > by MMY, and more particularly the Indian, or easter[n] system of > > belief. > > Your call, and your right. But if you want to be accurate, > don't conflate "Indian" with "Eastern." There are many > different belief systems in India itself, much less across > Asia. Hindu ain't Buddhist. Hindu ain't Taoist. Hindu ain't > Shinto. And as we've seen by "authority wavers" here, Hindu > ain't even Hindu; you'd be lucky to find agreement between > two Shankaracharyats, much less across the full range of > Hinduism. Good point. I have drawn my inspiration from the Upanishads, Bhagavatam, and some Vashista books. As well as Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, and Muktananda to name a few. > > I am not sure if those in the "unbelievers" camp disregard > > all that is offered along those lines, but I have found these > > teachings to be releveant to my own experience in many ways. "Unbelievers" was not a good term. But it was the best I could come up with with little time. > A meaningless statement. First because you felt the need to > use the term "unbelievers." Second because you don't define > "these teachings." WTF are you talking about exactly? For > example, if you are trying to say that sitting meditation has > potential value, I don't think you'll get an argument about > that from either Curtis or I. If you were talking "mindfulness," > I'd say that it has *great* value, potentially much more than > sitting meditation. The siddhis? No value whatsoever, and > that would be true even if anyone in the TMO had ever actually > manifested them, which they haven't. Jyotish, S-V, and that > sort of crap? Actual "negative value" in my opinion, because > other than feeding the placebo effect all they do is separate > people from their hard-earned money. So you've got to be more > specific about "teachings" if you want to be taken seriously. Okay, I'll go with sitting meditation. It gives me relaxation and a refined outstroke in many cases. I often feel a residual effect in daily life. I notice that it also has a positive effect on my blood pressure. > > And I not willing to chalk it up to the power of suggestion. > > I can chalk almost anything up to the power of suggestion, > and to the placebo effect. That doesn't mean that these things > don't have value to some people, merely that it's very possible > that they don't "work" the ways that people believe they do. I am not "looking" for experiences. In fact if I think I am having them, then I try to pay them even less mind. I would like to think that I have an aversion to "mood making". I am comfortable with where I am in the whole scheme of things. One day at a time seems like a practical way to live. > > I have also observed some real inconsistencies in the "unbeliever" > > outlook especially as it pertains to karma. In order to explain > > karma and it's long term ramifications I see the "unbeliever" > > introduce their own supernatural tenants. More later if anyone > > is interested. > > I'm interested, because I have seen no such thing.
Okay, I'll be specific. I recall asking Curtis some time ago about a newborn which I assume, from an atheist pov comes into the world as a blank slate. I then asked if we would then chalk up any abilities or tendencies that come into play to conditioning. His reply was, and I paraphrase, "there is so much we don't know about genetics". To me that sounds a lot like the "mystery of God talk". Chalk something we don't understand or can't explain to a higher understanding we don't or can't possess. > > Remember, karma is a *theory*, nothing more. There is not a > shred of evidence that such a theory has any relationship to > reality. I happen to believe that it does, but that's just a > belief on my part. But I don't see that I have to believe in > anything "supernatural" to support my belief, and I don't > think I've seen anyone else suggest such a thing. So again > you're going to have to be more specific. I certainly can't prove karma. But in trying to make sense of things, I have subscribed to this theory. When you ask an atheist about action and reaction-payback for good and "bad" actions, I have found the answers to be unsatisfying. That's just me. Karma makes sense. Just me again. > One thing that you are right about is that us Unbelievers > don't tend to let people get away with vague, hazy Newagey > language that doesn't really say anything. :-) > Well, I wrote that reply while getting ready to go to work. I hope I have provided some clarification.
