--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Buck" <dhamiltony2k5@...> wrote: > > O what a bunch of evil sophistry. > > This thread reads as careful veiled spiritual hate. > The beating of poor old Patanjali by mob.
One guy, having fun with an imaginary conversation with a possibly imaginary guy, is a *mob*? And you dare to use the word "sophistry?" :-) > Nice writing but it still smells like the sophistry > of limited epistemology. However, if you just had more > experience then you'd see. You sound like Patanjali: "If you only knew what I knew, and weren't so ignorant, you'd agree with me." :-) > Nice writing though, it's a beautiful strawman. > Thanks, I will meditate and pray for you and Curtis. Somehow that's not terribly comforting. Could you consider ignoring us instead? :-) > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > Ignoring attempts to derail this thread and make it > > all about Buddhism, I'm going to bring it back to its > > original subject, Patanjali, and a quote of his from > > the Yoga Sutras. > > > > > "However, the wise (though their own mind is totally free > > > of all sorrow) consider all experiences painful as they are > > > all the fruits of the actions of ignorance." (Y.S. II.15). > > > > Color me still unconvinced that this is "wise." Based > > on my 50-year history as a spiritual seeker of sorts, > > I think it's a statement based more on pathology and > > ego than wisdom. In this post I'm going to expand a bit > > upon why I think that. > > > > My first "spiritual experience," or at least the first > > one that leaped out at me and said, "Wow...this is > > different," was in Morocco, when I was 14. We lived in > > an Air Force house at the edge of the other houses on > > the base, which meant that outside my house there was > > pretty much nothing but desert. All I had to do was > > walk 100 yards away from my house, down into a shallow > > gully from which I could no longer see any of the houses, > > and I was as effectively "alone in the desert," in the > > same sense as if I'd been in the middle of the Sahara. > > > > This was 1960. Global pollution had not at that point > > obscured the skies. So I'd go out there in the middle > > of the night, lie down on my back, and just gaze at the > > stars. *Millions* of stars. Back then, as seen from > > North Africa, there was not a patch of sky bigger than > > the little fingernail on my hand held out at arm's > > length that didn't contain stars; the sky was *all* > > stars. And it was majestic. Gazing at it uplifted me > > and left me with nothing but an appreciation of how > > incredibly *beautiful* life was, and how fulfilling. > > Patanjali would have me believe that this experience > > was "painful." I think Patanjali was full of shit. > > > > Cut to last night. After a short rain that cleared the > > air of the atmospheric haze so normal at this time of > > year, I walked out to the lake near my house, spread > > out a blanket, lay down on my back, and gazed at the > > stars again. And they were majestic, even though I > > could only see about a tenth of the stars I used to > > see in Morocco. Gazing at the sky uplifted me again > > and left me with nothing but an appreciation of how > > incredibly *beautiful* life is, and STILL is. I'd be > > hard-pressed to describe this experience as "painful," > > too. > > > > And the thing is, both experiences were ENOUGH for me. > > In both cases I was fully Here And Now, enjoying the > > beauty of creation and uplifted by it. Not a fiber of > > my being -- those nights in Morocco or last night in > > Holland -- cried out for something "more," some state > > of attention or consciousness that could be "better" > > than the one I was already in. If Patanjali had come > > along and given me a "talking to," I imagine that the > > conversation would have been something like this. > > > > Patanjali: "Why are you wasting your time lying on > > your back looking at the sky when you could be spend- > > ing that same time trying to become enlightened. Don't > > you know that all experiences are painful?" > > > > Me: "Dude. You're a real buzzkill. Lighten the fuck up." > > > > Patanjali: "But what I'm saying is TRUE. Because I'm > > the one saying it. You have to trust me on this. This > > experience you're having is really painful, because > > it arises from "the fruits of the actions of ignorance." > > > > Me: "So, not content to tell me I'm wasting my time, > > now you've got to call me ignorant? Buzz off, buzzkill." > > > > Patanjali: "But I'm telling you this FOR YOUR OWN > > GOOD. Enlightenment is SO much better than what you > > have now that you're just a FOOL to settle for beauty > > (which is really pain, of course)." > > > > Me: "And I'm supposed to believe all of this just because > > you say it? Prove to me that such a state as enlightenment > > exists. Prove to me it's better or less 'painful' than > > what I'm experiencing right here, right now." > > > > Patanjali: "I can't prove it to you, except that I AM > > THE LIVING PROOF! I am enlightened. If I say something, > > it's true." > > > > Me: "Whatever." > > > > Patanjali: "Bu..bu...but you've GOT to believe me. I'm > > trying to rescue you from IGNORANCE." > > > > Me: "Again with the 'ignorant' thang. Dude, has anyone > > ever told you that you're a tad hostile? Have you ever > > considered taking up meditation? I'm told it can help > > even hostile people to chill out." > > > > Patanjali: "OK, I'll prove my enlightenment to you. > > Watch this." [ he levitates, floating several feet above > > me in exactly the way that a brick doesn't ] > > > > Me: "Neat trick. What do you use it for?" > > > > Patanjali: "What to you mean, 'use it for?' It has no > > 'use.' Me just demonstrating it to you is supposed to > > make you fall to your knees in awe and worship me and > > believe everything I say." > > > > Me: "Sorry, Charlie. It just doesn't have that kind > > of effect on me. So you can float in air. Big whoop. > > By doing it you wound up blocking my view of the stars. > > Not, in my book, the most pragmatic and useful of skills." > > > > Patanjali: "Bu...bu...but I was trying to save you from > > PAIN." > > > > Me: "I wasn't IN pain. I was as far from it as a sentient > > being can be. As far as I can tell, YOU are the one in > > pain. And you're reacting to it by trying to get others > > to *share* that pain -- or at least the point of view > > that convinces you that all experience is pain -- with > > others." > > > > Patanjali: "Yes, yes...you're finally getting it. Me > > trying to share my profound wisdom with you is *dharma*. > > I am trying to save you from your ignorance, and the > > pain it's created in your life." > > > > Me: "Could you consider floating off and trying to save > > somebody else? You're really blocking my view of the > > stars." > > > > Patanjali: "You think you can learn more from the stars > > than you can learn from ME?" [ aghast, dumbfounded ] > > > > Me: "Damned straight. The stars don't preach. They don't > > call me ignorant. They don't try to sell me on 'attaining' > > anything, especially when I'm in a good mood and enjoy- > > ing WHAT IS, without any desire to 'attain' anything more." > > > > Patanjali: "Ignorant asshole. I'm leaving you to your pain." > > > > Me: "And about bloody time, too. Watch out for that pigeon > > as you buzz off, will you. You wouldn't want to run into > > him and cause him any pain." > > >
