--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Buck" <dhamiltony2k5@...> wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Buck" <dhamiltony2k5@> wrote: > > > > > > O what a bunch of evil sophistry. > > > > > > This thread reads as careful veiled spiritual hate. > > > The beating of poor old Patanjali by mob. > > > > One guy, having fun with an imaginary conversation > > with a possibly imaginary guy, is a *mob*? And you > > dare to use the word "sophistry?" :-) > > > > Yep, inciting and intending to be incendiary. Oh sure it is in mob and > violent. You come on here demagogically saying something is no good because > you don't like it. > Curtis joins in. Joe and SevenRay pile on and we got > a regular FFL book and Patanjali-in-effigy strawman burning by mob.
I just think he was full of it and that his premises about reality are bogus. Trying to miscarriage our opinions as "violent" reveals how delicate these ideas are. They can only be discussed by people who have bought in already because disagreeing is violent! I believe you were appealing to emotions there for the effect of propping up a weak argument. I wonder what branch of human knowledge uses such techniques...oh I don't know...SOPHISTRY! (Please read the last in Dana Carvy's Church lady voice.) One last gem below: > A virtual internet mob in shocking violence. Just looking on as a > conservative meditator at this thread and that one before where you started > all this, it's evidently anti-science, anti-spiritual and hateful. Hell, > Curtis even admits it: > > ">And on hotties who > > make my... > > >>My kinda philosophy. > > > you get the picture. I am the guy that spiritual books warn > > against. I have more in common with this girl than any yogi: > > > > http://www.maniacworld.com/young-girl-turns-to-the-dark-side. > > >> Party on, Darth. :-)" > fairfieldLife/message/274571 > > > In the Science of cause and effect we are judged spiritually > here and after. So you have factual knowledge that if we don't toe the line and agree with you we are going to be "judged" after our deaths? Uh huh. Sure you do. I'll bet you know all about what happens after people die. Me: I don't know and I have no reason to believe you do either. Buck: I do know and am certain of what happens to people who do not share my beliefs after death. Let's rate each one on the Prittenberg clinical arrogance spectrum. Really Doug. Can't you just serve up some proof of your claims instead of this ad hominem diversion? > > Yep, buyer beware. I didn't see this posted on the distance healing section of the Website. I suggest adding it. > > -Buck > > > > > Nice writing but it still smells like the sophistry > > > of limited epistemology. However, if you just had more > > > experience then you'd see. > > > > You sound like Patanjali: "If you only knew what I > > knew, and weren't so ignorant, you'd agree with me." :-) > > > > > Nice writing though, it's a beautiful strawman. > > > Thanks, I will meditate and pray for you and Curtis. > > > > Somehow that's not terribly comforting. Could you > > consider ignoring us instead? :-) > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ignoring attempts to derail this thread and make it > > > > all about Buddhism, I'm going to bring it back to its > > > > original subject, Patanjali, and a quote of his from > > > > the Yoga Sutras. > > > > > > > > > "However, the wise (though their own mind is totally free > > > > > of all sorrow) consider all experiences painful as they are > > > > > all the fruits of the actions of ignorance." (Y.S. II.15). > > > > > > > > Color me still unconvinced that this is "wise." Based > > > > on my 50-year history as a spiritual seeker of sorts, > > > > I think it's a statement based more on pathology and > > > > ego than wisdom. In this post I'm going to expand a bit > > > > upon why I think that. > > > > > > > > My first "spiritual experience," or at least the first > > > > one that leaped out at me and said, "Wow...this is > > > > different," was in Morocco, when I was 14. We lived in > > > > an Air Force house at the edge of the other houses on > > > > the base, which meant that outside my house there was > > > > pretty much nothing but desert. All I had to do was > > > > walk 100 yards away from my house, down into a shallow > > > > gully from which I could no longer see any of the houses, > > > > and I was as effectively "alone in the desert," in the > > > > same sense as if I'd been in the middle of the Sahara. > > > > > > > > This was 1960. Global pollution had not at that point > > > > obscured the skies. So I'd go out there in the middle > > > > of the night, lie down on my back, and just gaze at the > > > > stars. *Millions* of stars. Back then, as seen from > > > > North Africa, there was not a patch of sky bigger than > > > > the little fingernail on my hand held out at arm's > > > > length that didn't contain stars; the sky was *all* > > > > stars. And it was majestic. Gazing at it uplifted me > > > > and left me with nothing but an appreciation of how > > > > incredibly *beautiful* life was, and how fulfilling. > > > > Patanjali would have me believe that this experience > > > > was "painful." I think Patanjali was full of shit. > > > > > > > > Cut to last night. After a short rain that cleared the > > > > air of the atmospheric haze so normal at this time of > > > > year, I walked out to the lake near my house, spread > > > > out a blanket, lay down on my back, and gazed at the > > > > stars again. And they were majestic, even though I > > > > could only see about a tenth of the stars I used to > > > > see in Morocco. Gazing at the sky uplifted me again > > > > and left me with nothing but an appreciation of how > > > > incredibly *beautiful* life is, and STILL is. I'd be > > > > hard-pressed to describe this experience as "painful," > > > > too. > > > > > > > > And the thing is, both experiences were ENOUGH for me. > > > > In both cases I was fully Here And Now, enjoying the > > > > beauty of creation and uplifted by it. Not a fiber of > > > > my being -- those nights in Morocco or last night in > > > > Holland -- cried out for something "more," some state > > > > of attention or consciousness that could be "better" > > > > than the one I was already in. If Patanjali had come > > > > along and given me a "talking to," I imagine that the > > > > conversation would have been something like this. > > > > > > > > Patanjali: "Why are you wasting your time lying on > > > > your back looking at the sky when you could be spend- > > > > ing that same time trying to become enlightened. Don't > > > > you know that all experiences are painful?" > > > > > > > > Me: "Dude. You're a real buzzkill. Lighten the fuck up." > > > > > > > > Patanjali: "But what I'm saying is TRUE. Because I'm > > > > the one saying it. You have to trust me on this. This > > > > experience you're having is really painful, because > > > > it arises from "the fruits of the actions of ignorance." > > > > > > > > Me: "So, not content to tell me I'm wasting my time, > > > > now you've got to call me ignorant? Buzz off, buzzkill." > > > > > > > > Patanjali: "But I'm telling you this FOR YOUR OWN > > > > GOOD. Enlightenment is SO much better than what you > > > > have now that you're just a FOOL to settle for beauty > > > > (which is really pain, of course)." > > > > > > > > Me: "And I'm supposed to believe all of this just because > > > > you say it? Prove to me that such a state as enlightenment > > > > exists. Prove to me it's better or less 'painful' than > > > > what I'm experiencing right here, right now." > > > > > > > > Patanjali: "I can't prove it to you, except that I AM > > > > THE LIVING PROOF! I am enlightened. If I say something, > > > > it's true." > > > > > > > > Me: "Whatever." > > > > > > > > Patanjali: "Bu..bu...but you've GOT to believe me. I'm > > > > trying to rescue you from IGNORANCE." > > > > > > > > Me: "Again with the 'ignorant' thang. Dude, has anyone > > > > ever told you that you're a tad hostile? Have you ever > > > > considered taking up meditation? I'm told it can help > > > > even hostile people to chill out." > > > > > > > > Patanjali: "OK, I'll prove my enlightenment to you. > > > > Watch this." [ he levitates, floating several feet above > > > > me in exactly the way that a brick doesn't ] > > > > > > > > Me: "Neat trick. What do you use it for?" > > > > > > > > Patanjali: "What to you mean, 'use it for?' It has no > > > > 'use.' Me just demonstrating it to you is supposed to > > > > make you fall to your knees in awe and worship me and > > > > believe everything I say." > > > > > > > > Me: "Sorry, Charlie. It just doesn't have that kind > > > > of effect on me. So you can float in air. Big whoop. > > > > By doing it you wound up blocking my view of the stars. > > > > Not, in my book, the most pragmatic and useful of skills." > > > > > > > > Patanjali: "Bu...bu...but I was trying to save you from > > > > PAIN." > > > > > > > > Me: "I wasn't IN pain. I was as far from it as a sentient > > > > being can be. As far as I can tell, YOU are the one in > > > > pain. And you're reacting to it by trying to get others > > > > to *share* that pain -- or at least the point of view > > > > that convinces you that all experience is pain -- with > > > > others." > > > > > > > > Patanjali: "Yes, yes...you're finally getting it. Me > > > > trying to share my profound wisdom with you is *dharma*. > > > > I am trying to save you from your ignorance, and the > > > > pain it's created in your life." > > > > > > > > Me: "Could you consider floating off and trying to save > > > > somebody else? You're really blocking my view of the > > > > stars." > > > > > > > > Patanjali: "You think you can learn more from the stars > > > > than you can learn from ME?" [ aghast, dumbfounded ] > > > > > > > > Me: "Damned straight. The stars don't preach. They don't > > > > call me ignorant. They don't try to sell me on 'attaining' > > > > anything, especially when I'm in a good mood and enjoy- > > > > ing WHAT IS, without any desire to 'attain' anything more." > > > > > > > > Patanjali: "Ignorant asshole. I'm leaving you to your pain." > > > > > > > > Me: "And about bloody time, too. Watch out for that pigeon > > > > as you buzz off, will you. You wouldn't want to run into > > > > him and cause him any pain." > > > > > > > > > >
